Question on Self Defense

[casp625]

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and...
(b)(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

My question is regarding what is highlighted in Sec 9.31 (a)(3) and Sec 9.32(b)(3)... Let's say you are in a situation where, under normal circumstances, you would have been justified in using deadly force. However, lets modify the previous scenario by adding that you are at a business that has a 30.06 sign posted and you inadvertently miss it. Doesn't this technically mean that you were engaged in criminal activity (it is a Class A misdemeanor) and that you would NOT be justified in using deadly force? Thoughts?

Now, if my previous question is true, then when 30.06 and 30.07 take effect, the penalty is reduced to a Class C misdemeanor. However, Sec 9.31 states "other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used." Since inadvertently walking past a 30.06/30.07 is not traffic related, wouldn't the previous scenario still apply in that you would not be justified in deadly force? Thoughts?

[Jago668]

Seems to be written that way.

[Keith B]

You would have to be able to prove you had not seen the 30.06 and therefore had not actually received notice of such. That would relieve you from being in commission of a Class A during the time of the shooting.

[casp625]

You would have to be able to prove you had not seen the 30.06 and therefore had not actually received notice of such. That would relieve you from being in commission of a Class A during the time of the shooting.

I'm just assuming that if you cannot prove otherwise, then you would not only be facing the Class A for the 30.06 but also manslaughter or possibly a murder charge as well?

[drjoker]

You think too much. Just don't miss the signs. Check online ahead of time before you go to a place to see if it is posted before you go. http://www.texas3006.com/

[Keith B]

You would have to be able to prove you had not seen the 30.06 and therefore had not actually received notice of such. That would relieve you from being in commission of a Class A during the time of the shooting.

I'm just assuming that if you cannot prove otherwise, then you would not only be facing the Class A for the 30.06 but also manslaughter or possibly a murder charge as well?

The chances of both a 30.06 posted location being missed when entering AND you having to use deadly force are very very small. Since there is no case law to set a residence on this, you can only theorize at this point and no one knows what would happen on charges. And, each case would be different anyway depending on prosecutor, Grand Jury, Judge, lawyers, jury, etc, so the outcome cannot be predicted.

[The Annoyed Man]

You think too much. Just don't miss the signs. Check online ahead of time before you go to a place to see if it is posted before you go. http://www.texas3006.com/

I agree with a couple of caveats.....

1. PC 30.06 only requires that the sign be "conspicuously" posted. It does NOT require that it be posted at the entrances, nor does it require that ther be more than one sign. In other words, if they conspicuously post it in the Men's Clothing section of a department store, but you never go into or pass through that section, then it is not only possible, but entirely likely that you could be violating 30.06 the entire time you're in the store without even realizing it.
2. texas3006.com is a valuable resource, but it is incomplete. It's database is only as good as the member contributions to it.

Bottom line is this: don't live in fear of 30.06, but do your due diligence; and if you see a sign of which you were previously unaware and you've already violated it, get out and disarm before going back in. Better yet, don't give them you dollars and take your business elsewhere.

There are two large shopping malls equidistant from my house — Grapevine Mills, and the Northeast Mall in Hurst. The former is posted, and the latter is not. I haven't spent a thin dime in the Grapevine Mills mall since 2007.

[The Wall]

There's no way they can prove you looked at the sign unless they got on camera reading it or they can look into your mind. So that would leave it up to the judge whether he believes you or not. I think saving your life and probably others would out weigh not seeing the sign.

[C-dub]

It's also possible that if you were in real danger and the use of deadly force was justified that the necessity would take precedence and the violation of the 30.06 would/probably/might be overlooked. This happens all the time when kids use firearms to protect themselves and or family members.

[jmra]

There's no way they can prove you looked at the sign unless they got on camera reading it or they can look into your mind. So that would leave it up to the judge whether he believes you or not. I think saving your life and probably others would out weigh not seeing the sign.

Nope. The law doesn't specify wether or not you saw the sign, just that it was conspicuously placed. Burden of proof would be on the defendant that the sign was not conspicuously placed.

[Jumping Frog]

There's no way they can prove you looked at the sign unless they got on camera reading it or they can look into your mind. So that would leave it up to the judge whether he believes you or not. I think saving your life and probably others would out weigh not seeing the sign.

Jmra, already noted the legal standard is "conspicuously posted", not "knowingly", in Texas.

However, your point is still invalid even in states where the legal standard is "knowingly", with typical language like "a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass". In such cases, the argument to the jury isn't whether or not the defendant actually saw the sign. The jury will consider evidence that the property was posted such that a "reasonable person" would either have known or should have known the property was posted.

[thetexan]

The black and white of the law is just that. A prosecutor will show every element of the statute that you failed to obey. Your defense attorney will try to mitigate those charges. A jury will decide and you will sit there, in the middle, waiting to hear your fate and wishing you had seen the sign.

If you are going to carry, pay attention to what you are doing.

Notice that 9.31 applies to using deadly force with your baseball bat, your umbrella, your purse or any other delivery instrument of deadly force. Only a gun is affected by 30.06. So if you miss the sign and are carrying a gun can you use deadly force to defend yourself with a purse?

Are you are committing a crime other than a non-vehicle class c misdemeanor?

Will a jury convict you? Who knows...but that's what makes being a defendant In a criminal trial so exhilerating!!

Doesn't it

Tex