ND or AD? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot?

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Charles L. Cotton
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ND or AD? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Yeah, the pun was intended, but I thought it might get your attention. I have stayed out of the Houston gun show AD/ND discussion and I've never really voiced my concern over the growing use of the term "negligent discharge," until now of course.

I believe I understand the motive behind the movement that began a few years ago toward replacing the term "accidental discharge" with the now in vogue "ND." As I view it, the shooting community wants to hold itself to a higher standard of safety and is taking the position that any unintentional discharge of a firearm is negligent. As the argument goes, the only "accidental" discharge that occurs is one that is caused solely by a mechanical failure unrelated to any human input. I believe this position is not only overly harsh on fallible humans, but it is also conceptually and legally incorrect. Otherwise, we have to accept the premise that any untoward event that is caused in whole or part by human failure or mistake rises to the level of negligence. Surely we aren’t ready to shoulder that heavy a burden on a global basis, so why should we do so with firearm usage?

Perhaps I’m looking at this from the standpoint of a trial attorney, but really don’t think that is the sole basis of my opinion. Nevertheless, let’s look at the definition of “negligence� that is given to juries in civil cases.
Definition of Negligence wrote:�Negligence� is doing that which a reasonable prudent person under the same or similar circumstances would not have done, or not doing that which a reasonable person would have done under the same or similar circumstances.
Note that the definition doesn’t say that any participation in an unwanted or unintended occurrence is negligence, rather it focuses on what reasonable prudent people would or would not do. This standard does not require perfection in terms of human performance. There are many events most people would call accidents, such as a driver’s wet shoe causing their foot to slip off the clutch and causing an accident; missing the nail and hitting your finger or punching a hole in the drywall; or slamming a fresh magazine home without your hand being flat a pinching your hand! (Guess why I used that one. )

Bad results don’t always equate to negligence, nor does our failure to perform to the highest standards in any activity. The fact is people do make mistakes and accidents do happen. Does this mean it’s okay to have a car wreck, cut ourselves with a knife, burn an arm while reaching into a hot oven, or having a AD at the range? Of course not, we should always try to prevent accidents and to learn from them when they do occur. And some conduct clearly rises to the level of negligence, perhaps even gross negligence. Pointing your gun at the target with people downrange is clearly negligent, or going into a “shoot house� to run a drill without first making sure the tapers are clear is another example. Driving your car while you are exhausted or on medication that makes you drowsy are other examples of conduct that rises to the level of negligence.

I suggest that whether an intended discharge of a firearm rises to the level of negligence will depend upon the circumstances surrounding each specific event. Undoubtedly, some will be caused by negligent conduct while others will be simple accidents. A drunk with a gun is a clear example of negligence even before the ND. So too is someone who doesn’t practice trying to take the dreaded “hostage shot� in a life or death encounter. Other unintended events (including firearm discharges) are truly accidents as we commonly use that term. I have seen hundreds of juries rule precisely that, even though the event was caused by the acts or the omissions of the defendant. Although it’s hardly a legal concept, most of the jurors I have spoken to after such results in trials tend to view the defendant’s conduct in terms of what does or does not frequently occur to people. If it commonly occurs, juries tend to label such events as “accidents� because they happen to people they would consider to be “reasonable prudent� people. If the event is rare, then the perception is that “reasonable prudent� people don’t cause such events, so it rises to the level of negligence. This seems like a reasonable analysis when juries round off the rough edges of the law.

I suggest that calling every unintentional discharge “negligence� plays into the hands of the anti-gun crowd, just as we did years ago when we started using the term “assault rifle� when referring to guns that clearly were not. Calling an AD and ND does not result in greater safety and fewer events, nor does using the term “accidental discharge� condone unsafe gun-handling practices. Perhaps it’s time for us to reevaluate the application of the term “negligent discharge� to every single unintentional discharge.

Just my opinion folks - - -

Chas.
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Post by flintknapper »

Interesting concept.

I would agree that room exists for both types of discharges (Accidental and Negligent).....and that it would be incorrect to lump all into one category.

However, most of the mishaps I have witnessed seem to fit the negligent definition more closely than accidental.

Main Entry: ac•ci•dent
Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall -- more at CHANCE

1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE <met by accident rather than by design>

2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance




Main Entry: neg•li•gent
Pronunciation: -j&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin neglegent-, neglegens, present participle of neglegere

1 a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b : failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances

2 : marked by a carelessly easy manner



Some will argue this is a matter of semantics, I disagree.....but I tend to be very black or white about some subjects.

Like you, I think labeling EVERY unintended discharge of a firearm "negligent"....is inaccurate (if not damaging).

On the other hand, I am aware of the need for us to "police our own" and to do so with some amount of vigor when needed.

In the meantime, I pray that no one comes up with an (AND): Accidentally Negligent Discharge. :sad:
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Post by longtooth »

I love your wit & the truths that are alwas anchored & verified.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Well, if I could get paid for how many days I go without feeling like a doof...I'd still be extremely poor...

As for the "AND" definition...I actually think thats pretty clever...But I agree, I hope it never takes off like the ND term...
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Post by phddan »

I do agree that not all unintentional discharges are negligent.
And I also agree that most are. :sad:

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Post by Liberty »

flintknapper wrote:Interesting concept.

I would agree that room exists for both types of discharges (Accidental and Negligent).....and that it would be incorrect to lump all into one category.

However, most of the mishaps I have witnessed seem to fit the negligent definition more closely than accidental.
Most man made incidents. are either intentional or accidental. Often such accidental incidents are a result of negligence. It is still an accident. if its a case of a gun going off. If it wasn't on purpose it is still an accident. Calling such an incident an accidental discharge is an accurate description whether there is negligence or not. Negligence is a legal term, I would hate to make things worse for someone because such casual references to such shootings became so common place.
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Post by mrbug »

I have a really difficult time with the word accident. To me, an accident is something that was totally unavoidable. If a gun should go off because the trigger was pulled and I failed to clear the chamber first, is that an accident? If it should go off during holstering or unholstering because my finger was in the trigger guard would that be an accident?

Maybe my problem is more of accountability. Too many people failing to take responsibility for their actions or inactions.
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Post by carlson1 »

Great Post Mr. Cotton. I do not think we should be handing over ammo for the anti gun movement either. :thumbsup: An Accident is just that an Accident. That is the reason they do not call them motor vehicle on purposes.
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Post by flintknapper »

Liberty wrote:
flintknapper wrote:Interesting concept.

I would agree that room exists for both types of discharges (Accidental and Negligent).....and that it would be incorrect to lump all into one category.

However, most of the mishaps I have witnessed seem to fit the negligent definition more closely than accidental.
Most man made incidents. are either intentional or accidental. Often such accidental incidents are a result of negligence. It is still an accident. if its a case of a gun going off. If it wasn't on purpose it is still an accident. Calling such an incident an accidental discharge is an accurate description whether there is negligence or not. Negligence is a legal term, I would hate to make things worse for someone because such casual references to such shootings became so common place.

That might sell to someone else, but there is a high end to "I didn't mean to". :sad:

Besides.....if the "accident" was wholly or in part due to "negligence" then it was negligence first by default right?

I'm going to leave this subject alone now.....to be pondered by minds sharper than mine.

I have no disagreement with what Chas. wrote. As is his nature....he has looked more deeply into something that may indeed be a problem for the shooting community (Thank you Sir).

As part of that community....I believe we should be quick to point out (and correct) what is clearly negligent ourselves, before the anti's do it.

Even if the incident seems to fall under the heading "accident", I think it would be prudent to ask the "five whys" in regards to how/why it happened.

"Because we're human and we make mistakes" is undeniably true. But, is often used as a crutch to avoid the effort it takes to educate ourselves and to practice good habits.


Just my .00002

Very interesting subject.
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Post by Liberty »

mrbug wrote:I have a really difficult time with the word accident. To me, an accident is something that was totally unavoidable. If a gun should go off because the trigger was pulled and I failed to clear the chamber first, is that an accident? If it should go off during holstering or unholstering because my finger was in the trigger guard would that be an accident?

Maybe my problem is more of accountability. Too many people failing to take responsibility for their actions or inactions.
Since when does an accident equate to something unavoidable? Perhaps we are into semantics here but I find that the defination of accidental is:
"without intention (especially resulting from heedless action); "with an inadvertent gesture she swept the vase off the table"; "accidental poisoning"; "an accidental shooting"

Folks are found accountable for accidents all the time.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Before we get too huffy about this issue...I think this is a great discussion and point(s) that Charles brought up...

I would pose a situation on you...

If I had been the one who had shot myself in the hand, and been the one being charged...

Never mind the accidental nature of this, and if it was negligence on my part, should I be thought less of, considering if I was known personally or not to you???

What if this had been Charles, Txi, Seamus, Liberty, or even Roy D. Mercer (newest member of the forum)...Pick a participant...

The true lesson to be learned is to learn from someone elses mistake, and do your best to not be the next one discussed...

I can guarantee you that you will be harder on yourself, than anyone else here will ever come close to being...

The law gives you a chance to see to what degree you should be accountable for these incidences...And we all know what goes onto those scales in a court of law...

I believe we all do the very best we can considering what we do is naturally dangerous...
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Post by PAR »

Charles – Having been in the risk management field for more than 20 years, I couldn’t agree with you more on the use of negligence versus accidental when describing an event. As you point out the terms apply to more than just firearms but many other facets of our daily life where an event is classified as to the cause.

Stepping back 20 years ago when I first entered the field, all events were classified as an accident; even though, we knew that at some point in the chain of events there was failure to act by the party in 89% of the cases. The use of negligence was always around but seldom used outside of the legal discussions because we felt it was just to harsh of a term to describe the events in our discussions with the respective actors. Then slowly but surely the word started creeping into our daily vocabulary as a method of describing the event and consequently the failure in behavior. The use of the term didn’t negate our fact-finding to determine the underlying causes; however, it did help diminish the idea that accidents just happen and that somewhere in the chain someone was negligent.

Today the use of “negligence� has been engrained in society outside of the legal field to the point that we use it to describe just about every failure to act, almost to the point that it would appear that we’re out for blood. Remember when a car accident was just “unplanned event?� Of course if the individual was DWI is a different story but now we dissect your every move behind the wheel to determine what charges should be filed. The same applies to childcare, home maintenance, conduct in public, firearms, etc….

In short, you’re right the term plays in the hands of the anti-crowd and we shouldn’t use it to describe every event but I don’t think we’ll ever see a mind-set change because it’s a societal issue, i.e. accident = sorry/forgiveness versus negligence = blame/pound of flesh.
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Post by seamusTX »

I don't think we can make a moral judgment unless we know all the facts, which we generally can't.

And lacking that knowledge, we should refrain from judging.

However, speaking in general, accidents are not created equal.

I'll give you an example from another aspect of life. I have been in car crashes, as many of us have. Two of them, in 30 years, were definitely my fault. The insurance companies seem to consider that normal and acceptable, and I am currently paying the lowest rates.

OTOH, my best friend through my teen years somehow passed driver ed and got his drivers license. Although he was a nice, intelligent guy who was never malicious, he was a lunatic behind the wheel. He nearly got me and himself killed by running a railroad crossing. I never got in a car with him again. He lost his license within the first year he had it. I lost track of him later and suspect he is dead.

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Post by HighVelocity »

Ok, I see the reasoning here but please allow me to add another angle to the AD/ND interpretation.

Example: John Doe, while handling his gun, unintentionally discharges it into the ground. No person/s are injured and no property is damaged.

Example 2: John Doe, while handling his firearm unintentionally discharges it and the bullet goes through his or someone else's foot and into the ground.

I would say that in example 2, John Doe negligently discharged his weapon because it was pointed in an unsafe direction when he unintentionally pulled the trigger.

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Post by GrillKing »

Liberty wrote: Most man made incidents. are either intentional or accidental. Often such accidental incidents are a result of negligence. It is still an accident. if its a case of a gun going off. If it wasn't on purpose it is still an accident. Calling such an incident an accidental discharge is an accurate description whether there is negligence or not. Negligence is a legal term, I would hate to make things worse for someone because such casual references to such shootings became so common place.
I agree completely with Liberty. There are certainly negligent discharges, but we need to be careful, IMHO, of labeling non-purely mechanical failures a ND. If we applied that ND logic to the automobile, 99% of all accidents wouldn't be 'accidents'!!
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