Another Question Regarding Day Care and CHL

[txcharvel]

OK, I know this has been beat to death here...but with no definitive answer. Can you legally carry in a day care center?

The regs say that law enforcement officers can carry, but then the regs go on about storage and controlling access. CHL is not mentioned.

Normally I would just say "concealed is concealed" and not worry about it. But I need some type of definitive support for a policy decision that I will have to justify legally. Without any clear direction, I will admit that the regs seem to be against CHL in day care.

Any clear direction you can offer is greatly appreciated.

[LSUTiger]

See this thread, now that my kids are in what I consider a "real" private school and not "day care with a curriculum" I no longer have to guess at what the right answer is.

But up until then they were in a daycare with Pre-K, K and 1st grade, infants to 6 or 7 years old and also a summer program for kids up to 10 I think (Primrose School). No 30.06 but I always wondered and thought it was off limits. According to my search it was in fact a TEPSAC accredited program and to my interpretation, off limits to CHL.

viewtopic.php?t=62745

Updated Link

http://www.tepsac.org/#/search/schools

[txcharvel]

Thank you for the reply. I did read that thread and it never gave a definitive answer. Your example is true for an accredited school but would not necessarily apply to a regular licensed day care.

Did our legislative heroes simply forget this or is it really off limits? At this point I may have to concede that these areas need to be deemed off limits.

[txcharvel]

Thank you for the reply. I did read that thread and it never gave a definitive answer. Your example is true for an accredited school but would not necessarily apply to a regular licensed day care.

Did our legislative heroes simply forget this or is it really off limits? At this point I may have to concede that these areas need to be deemed off limits.

[LSUTiger]

Thank you for the reply. I did read that thread and it never gave a definitive answer. Your example is true for an accredited school but would not necessarily apply to a regular licensed day care.

Did our legislative heroes simply forget this or is it really off limits? At this point I may have to concede that these areas need to be deemed off limits.

I am sure you would need to consult legal counsel for a definitive answer. Anyone in "authority" but not legal counsel is sure to err on the side of caution.

[ScottDLS]

One question to ask an attorney, would be...If I do, what crime will I be charged with? Not talking about possible employment actions should you work there, or daycare licensing issues...

What statute am I violating if I walk into a daycare center with my CCW?

46.03...(school)...not in my opinion...(worth what you paid for it).

[ScottDLS waits for someone to talk about beating the rap, but not the ride...

[Vol Texan]

Thank you for the reply. I did read that thread and it never gave a definitive answer. Your example is true for an accredited school but would not necessarily apply to a regular licensed day care.

Did our legislative heroes simply forget this or is it really off limits? At this point I may have to concede that these areas need to be deemed off limits.

txcharvel,

It did give a definitive answer in the second posting by Keith: viewtopic.php?t=62745#p770133. But then the conversation continued and the issue got cloudy. I believe that what Keith said is right.

But yes, there is no case law, so nobody wants to be the one that has to test the system. I, personally, WILL carry in a day care. I WILL NOT carry in a day care that is a subset of an accredited school.

The interesting thing about your OP is this sentence:

I need some type of definitive support for a policy decision that I will have to justify legally.

As an outsider reading this for the first time, it SOUNDS like you're in charge there, and you need to make a decision on whether CHLs can carry or not. IF this is true, and IF you are in a position where you can make this decision, then you can make it either way. You have the authority to allow CHL holders to carry in your facility. Even if you owned an accredited, private elementary school, you have the right to allow it. Even public schools can allow it - of the right person in charge approves (and no, I'm not talking about the assistant coach here - perhaps the superintendent or school board - but now it's off topic). How you approve the CHL holders to carry is up to you, but you do have that right, if you are in that position to make the decision..

[txcharvel]

Thank you for the reply. I did read that thread and it never gave a definitive answer. Your example is true for an accredited school but would not necessarily apply to a regular licensed day care.

Did our legislative heroes simply forget this or is it really off limits? At this point I may have to concede that these areas need to be deemed off limits.

txcharvel,

It did give a definitive answer in the second posting by Keith: viewtopic.php?t=62745#p770133. But then the conversation continued and the issue got cloudy. I believe that what Keith said is right.

But yes, there is no case law, so nobody wants to be the one that has to test the system. I, personally, WILL carry in a day care. I WILL NOT carry in a day care that is a subset of an accredited school.

The interesting thing about your OP is this sentence:

I need some type of definitive support for a policy decision that I will have to justify legally.

As an outsider reading this for the first time, it SOUNDS like you're in charge there, and you need to make a decision on whether CHLs can carry or not. IF this is true, and IF you are in a position where you can make this decision, then you can make it either way. You have the authority to allow CHL holders to carry in your facility. Even if you owned an accredited, private elementary school, you have the right to allow it. Even public schools can allow it - of the right person in charge approves (and no, I'm not talking about the assistant coach here - perhaps the superintendent or school board - but now it's off topic). How you approve the CHL holders to carry is up to you, but you do have that right, if you are in that position to make the decision..

Thank you all for the replies, but please understand that I am not confusing this with a school or questioning anything about the idea of this being a school. It's not a school, it's a day care center. You can't carry in a school.

I've only had a little time to research this since it came up, which is why I came to the board for help. From the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, Minimum Standards for Child Care Centers:

§746.3707 Are firearms or other weapons allowed at my child-care center?
Subchapter S, Safety Practices
Division 1, Safety Precautions
September 2003
(a) Law enforcement officials who are trained and certified to carry a firearm on duty may have firearms or ammunition on the premises of the child-care center.
(b) For all other persons, firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons are prohibited on the premises of the child-care center, unless the child-care center is also your residence.
(c) Firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons kept on the premises of a child-care center located in your home must remain in a locked cabinet inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.
(d) Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked cabinet and inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.

The bolded section above is why I asked the question.

Regarding my statement on making a policy decision, I really can't elaborate on that right now. I will say that my ability to defend my position on this is important to a lot of people. Just to clarify, I am not defending myself nor was I confronted on the matter. If someone has some expert insight or can point me in the right direction I would be very grateful. Thanks all

[Vol Texan]

Thank you all for the replies, but please understand that I am not confusing this with a school or questioning anything about the idea of this being a school. It's not a school, it's a day care center. You can't carry in a school.

I've only had a little time to research this since it came up, which is why I came to the board for help. From the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, Minimum Standards for Child Care Centers:

§746.3707 Are firearms or other weapons allowed at my child-care center?
Subchapter S, Safety Practices
Division 1, Safety Precautions
September 2003
(a) Law enforcement officials who are trained and certified to carry a firearm on duty may have firearms or ammunition on the premises of the child-care center.
(b) For all other persons, firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons are prohibited on the premises of the child-care center, unless the child-care center is also your residence.
(c) Firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons kept on the premises of a child-care center located in your home must remain in a locked cabinet inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.
(d) Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked cabinet and inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.

The bolded section above is why I asked the question.

Regarding my statement on making a policy decision, I really can't elaborate on that right now. I will say that my ability to defend my position on this is important to a lot of people. Just to clarify, I am not defending myself nor was I confronted on the matter. If someone has some expert insight or can point me in the right direction I would be very grateful. Thanks all

Excellent. Thanks for posting the legal wording that made it questionable. That clears up your original question quite a bit.

Now I'm going to sit back and let the lawyers answer this one for you. I know it'll be good!

[ScottDLS]

OK, I know this has been beat to death here...but with no definitive answer. Can you legally carry in a day care center?

The regs say that law enforcement officers can carry, but then the regs go on about storage and controlling access. CHL is not mentioned.

Normally I would just say "concealed is concealed" and not worry about it. But I need some type of definitive support for a policy decision that I will have to justify legally. Without any clear direction, I will admit that the regs seem to be against CHL in day care.

Any clear direction you can offer is greatly appreciated.

OK what do you mean by LEGALLY carry in a day care center? Is it a crime...? NO, it isn't. If it is, show me in the Penal Code. It's not there.

Does the Administrative Code prohibit it? YES per the section you posted. So maybe you lose your (day care) license if you're employed there and you carry. But if I walk in carrying, I'm not breaking the law (unless day care posts 30.06).

Since you can't say what kind of policy decision you will have to justify, you'll have to decide for yourself whether you can allow carry. If you have to justify it to a criminal jury, you win. I have a CHL, therefore I am not guilty of PC 46.02...no criminal sanction. Then Texas takes away the day care license because they allowed you to come in armed (presuming they knew about it). I'm open to suggestions why I'm wrong, but with information supplied that's my take.