"Common Areas" of Home Owner's Associations

[RossA]

I was asked by a student, and I am not sure of the answer. Let's say you live in a neighborhood or condo which is administered by a HOA. The deed restrictions establish certain "common areas" in the neighborhood or condo buildings. The common areas are not city property, but common areas of the HOA.
Here is the question: Can the HOA, either by rules or deed restrictions, legally enforce 30.06 or 30.07 signs, or otherwise limit the carrying of handguns (or any type of gun) in a common area? HOA offices, meetings of homeowners, common greenspaces, lobby areas of condo buildings, etc.?
Thanks in advance.

[thenick_ttu]

I don't have an answer but I'm curious about this as well. Saving for later.

[Beiruty]

I would say YES, if the Board of Directors vote to do so. I assume legal 30.06 and 30.07 signs has to be up to be enforceable.

[RossA]

My understanding (possibly flawed) is that common areas, by definition are commonly owned by all property owners. Therefore, as a property owner, how can someone tell me that I can't carry on my own property?
Of course, the other side will say, "It's my property, too, so I can keep you off of my property with a gun if I want to."
I wonder if Charles has dealt with this.
I can see where, depending upon the location of the common areas, it might be very difficult to walk around your neighborhood, or through the lobby of a condo building, carrying.

[RoyGBiv]

My understanding (possibly flawed) is that common areas, by definition are commonly owned by all property owners. Therefore, as a property owner, how can someone tell me that I can't carry on my own property?

Typically, when you buy a property that is part of an Association (HOA) you sign off on the HOA covenants as part of the closing process. If the covenants say no guns on common property, then, you;ve agreed to abide by that rule when you signed off on the covenants.

How many folks read their covenants in detail before closing?
I definitely do/did.

[JALLEN]

It depends on a couple of factors.

First, is the common area owned by the HOA or by the owners in undivided fractional interests? In some subdivisions, an owner is deeded title to his lot or unit, plus undivided interests in common areas. In that situation, I believe courts have ruled that the HOA cannot deprive an owner of carry rights. In cases where common areas are deeded to the HOA entity which itself is owned in turn by the property owners, it might be possible.

Second, if it is possible, a lot will depend on the specific provisions of the pertinent documents, the formation of the HOA, what powers are given to the board of directors, and the Declaration of Conditions, Covenants and Restrictions (CC&Rs). That document will clarify whether the board might enact such a rule, or whether it must be by vote of property owners, following the procedures set out in those documents.

[ScottDLS]

My understanding (possibly flawed) is that common areas, by definition are commonly owned by all property owners. Therefore, as a property owner, how can someone tell me that I can't carry on my own property?
Of course, the other side will say, "It's my property, too, so I can keep you off of my property with a gun if I want to."
I wonder if Charles has dealt with this.
I can see where, depending upon the location of the common areas, it might be very difficult to walk around your neighborhood, or through the lobby of a condo building, carrying.

Charles has cited case law for CONDOs that says you are correct, but if you have an HOA corporate entity that holds property in a detached house development, it may not have the same outcome.

[Richbirdhunter]

Can you 30.06, 30.07 an outside area?

[locke_n_load]

Can you 30.06, 30.07 an outside area?

Yes.

[sjfcontrol]

Can you 30.06, 30.07 an outside area?

Yes. Section 30.06 refers to "property", not "premises".

[ELB]

There is a thread here some place, within this past year, that addresses "common areas." Mr. Cotton weighed in with a case citation and other info. Now to find it....


Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=79357&hilit=chas.+c ... a&start=15
This may or may not shed enlightenment. Get a cup of coffee first, it is a long thread.

[RossA]

My understanding (possibly flawed) is that common areas, by definition are commonly owned by all property owners. Therefore, as a property owner, how can someone tell me that I can't carry on my own property?

Typically, when you buy a property that is part of an Association (HOA) you sign off on the HOA covenants as part of the closing process. If the covenants say no guns on common property, then, you;ve agreed to abide by that rule when you signed off on the covenants.

How many folks read their covenants in detail before closing?
I definitely do/did.

RoyGBiv, I see what you are saying, but a lot of neighborhoods have deed restrictions which were put in place before we even had CHL, so there would be nothing in there about it.
Also, I would imagine that a lot of restrictions written after CHL came in probably never thought about addressing the issue.
This would probably come up more in terms of a new "rule" or policy approved by a HOA board after the fact.

[ELB]

I was asked by a student, and I am not sure of the answer. Let's say you live in a neighborhood or condo which is administered by a HOA. The deed restrictions establish certain "common areas" in the neighborhood or condo buildings. The common areas are not city property, but common areas of the HOA.
Here is the question: Can the HOA, either by rules or deed restrictions, legally enforce 30.06 or 30.07 signs, or otherwise limit the carrying of handguns (or any type of gun) in a common area? HOA offices, meetings of homeowners, common greenspaces, lobby areas of condo buildings, etc.?
Thanks in advance.

Having re-read the thread I linked to a couple posts above, I am pretty sure that the answer you should give your student is: " Read your HOA and CC&R documents, and consult your lawyer." I really don't think this type of question is or should be within the domain of a CHL (LTC) Instructor's responsibility.

If nothing else, give them a link to this thread and the one I put in, and wish them luck!

[RossA]

Actually, it's also something I would like to know for myself in case my HOA tries anything like it.

[Charles L. Cotton]

There is a thread here some place, within this past year, that addresses "common areas." Mr. Cotton weighed in with a case citation and other info. Now to find it....


Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=79357&hilit=chas.+c ... a&start=15
This may or may not shed enlightenment. Get a cup of coffee first, it is a long thread.

ELB is right, the this exact topic was covered in the thread he linked. He's also correct about it being a very long thread. Below are three of my posts from that thread. The answer is different for condominiums and neighborhoods with single family homes.

Chas.

Are you talking about a condominium project with an HOA or a subdivision with an HOA? If it's the former, then the common areas are also owned by the unit owners and this is exactly the ruling in the Chiarini case. If it's the latter, then the land may or may not be owned by the homeowners collectively. I think most, if not all, subdivision HOAs do not own any property and it belongs to the homeowners as joint tenants in common. This not my area of practice, so I may be wrong about subdivisions.

Chas.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the authority of an HOA under Texas law. First, the Texas Condominium Act expressly states that the common areas are owned by the owners of the units in the complex. They are not owned by the HOA. The Chiarini court noted this in the following statement "This phrase conforms to the requirements of the Condominium Act, which provides, 'An owner of an apartment in a condominium regime shares ownership of the regime's common elements with the other apartment owners'." This is why I made the distinction between condo complexes and subdivisions.

While this is not my area of practice, I'm not clueless about HOAs. My wife is President our our HOA, so I've learned from her and I've researched issues for her and the board. HOA's cannot create rules or restrictions that are not in the deed restrictions and the covenants adopted by the HOA at inception, or by amendments approved by the home owners. That's another reason why a 30.07 sign won't be effective against homeowners and perhaps not against anyone.

I would never live outside of an HOA again. I realize some folks, especially hams, disagree and that's fine, that's their choice. However, there's no more validity to the bogus claims that all or even a majority of HOA boards are tyrants, than there is to the claim that all gun owners are irresponsible or have criminal intent.

Chas.

I read our Deed Restrictions and I was wrong about ownership of the common areas in our neighborhood. It is not a condominium project, so it's not subject to the Texas Condominium Act. The common areas are actually owned by our HOA that is chartered as a Texas Corporation. The common areas and amenities are held by the HOA for the use of homeowners/members and their invited guests, so the HOA cannot arbitrarily bar a Member. Our Deed Restrictions authorizes the HOA to make "reasonable rules" for operation of the common areas and amenities, so it may be possible to post an enforceable §30.07 sign on common areas. I say "may" because self-defense and the carrying of handguns triggers constitutional issues that loud music and glass containers do not.

Chas.