Concealed Carry, Open Carry, Company Policy, and the Law

[VMI77]

Not the brightest of holidays for me. For years my company explicitly allowed CC by employees with CHLs. The company even hosted a CHL class on the property. A couple months ago the company even more explicitly authorized CC by employees with CHLs. Then suddenly, just before the holidays, it was announced that policy was changed to prohibit both CC and OC and that 30.06 and 30.07 signs would be posted on the entrance gate. The policy change raised quite a bit of consternation in my department as a very large percentage of us have CHLs.....maybe 50% or so.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to company policy versus the law questions because I didn't need to, but the recent policy change has me seeking greater understanding of the line between policy and law. First, the circumstances.....

I work at a site that encloses maybe 400 acres, is fenced, not open to the general public, and has controlled access. There is an entrance gate with armed security guards who process visitors and admit employees. Employees have key cards to open the gate when security is not present. There are several different buildings that house employees on the site, each with their own parking areas. A key card is required to access the buildings. All the building parking areas on the property are accessible by private vehicle.

As of now the company has posted 30.06 and 30.07 signs at the entrance gate. I haven't checked every building but so far as I know none of the buildings themselves are posted and in the meeting that announced the policy change we were told that signs were going to be posted at the gate --implying that the buildings would not be posted. The signs at the gate say that concealed and open carry is prohibited "on the property." One of the guys in our department is an ex full time LEO and current reserve LEO and he says that signs at the gate are invalid.

Here is the relevant part of the company policy (company info redacted with XXXXXXX):

NO WEAPONS OF ANY TYPE ARE ALLOWED ON XXXXXXX PREMISES, PROPERTY, VEHICLES, OR WORK LOCATIONS INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, HANDGUNS AND RIFLES, KNIVES (UNLESS SUCH A KNIFE IS A REGULAR TOOL ON THE JOB), CROSS-BOWS, BOW AND ARROWS, AIR-PISTOLS, AIR-RIFLES, DARTS, EXPLOSIVES, TOXIC AGENTS OR ANY OTHER DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES DESIGNED TO INFLICT INJURY OR CAUSE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (E.G. BRASS-KNUCKLES, NUN-CHAKU, ETC.).

Employees are not permitted to openly carry weapons on XXXXXX premises, property, vehicles, or work locations, or at any time while on duty or performing any work functions for the XXXXXXX regardless of location, pursuant to Texas Penal Code Section 30.07.
The sole exception to this policy is that employees may store or transport legally owned firearms or ammunition that are lawfully possessed and locked in the employee’s own private vehicle on XXXXXXXX-owned parking lots or areas. Employees working at non-XXXXXXX-owned locations are required to abide by weapons policies with additional restrictions in place at those locations.

Strangely, the policy prohibits weapons on the company property but only mentions OC. The actual wording would seem to allow CC but given the 30.06 sign posted at the entrance gate the intention is to also prohibit CC.

I'm interested in how others here interpret the policy, the legal implications, and what seems to be a confused application of the law and policy. I do not want to violate the law. As I have a good job and desire to remain employed I do not intend to violate company policy. Some thoughts and questions....

1. How does the 30.06 sign at the entrance gate affect CC on the property outside of the buildings? For example, would I be in violation of the law if I was CC in a parking area or other area outside any building or just in violation of company policy?

2. I assume that if the buildings are not posted that visitors are not legally prohibited from CC....or is the 30.06 sign at the entrance gate a legal prohibition for any place on the property? It seems like an authorized visitor could legally enter and park and still CC if the building he is visiting isn't posted but I am unsure given the nature of the site described above.

3. As I read the policy it prohibits all carry on company property but with regard to performing work functions at other locations only OC is prohibited.

4. Can the company legally prohibit OC in a parking area with the 30.07 sign at the entrance? This question really applies to visitors as an employee would obviously be in violation of company policy.

I guess this really boils down to what legal status the fenced in property has.....does that enclosure make it equivalent to a building? If so, is a gun in your private vehicle a violation of the law even thought it is authorized by company policy? Or is CC in a privately owned vehicle essentially legal anywhere except those facilities where possession of a firearm is prohibited by federal law?

[RPBrown]

IANAL but you were verbally given notice on both counts at the meeting where they announced the policy change, therefore CC and OC are off limits to you.

Now, based on what you have stated the sign on the gate says, it is not a valid sign and does not prohibit either except that you were given verbal notice. The parking lot, per your quote is invalid. However, OC in the parking lot would fall under policy and probably get you terminated.

[ScottDLS]

Not the brightest of holidays for me. For years my company explicitly allowed CC by employees with CHLs. The company even hosted a CHL class on the property. A couple months ago the company even more explicitly authorized CC by employees with CHLs. Then suddenly, just before the holidays, it was announced that policy was changed to prohibit both CC and OC and that 30.06 and 30.07 signs would be posted on the entrance gate. The policy change raised quite a bit of consternation in my department as a very large percentage of us have CHLs.....maybe 50% or so.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to company policy versus the law questions because I didn't need to, but the recent policy change has me seeking greater understanding of the line between policy and law. First, the circumstances.....

I work at a site that encloses maybe 400 acres, is fenced, not open to the general public, and has controlled access. There is an entrance gate with armed security guards who process visitors and admit employees. Employees have key cards to open the gate when security is not present. There are several different buildings that house employees on the site, each with their own parking areas. A key card is required to access the buildings. All the building parking areas on the property are accessible by private vehicle.

As of now the company has posted 30.06 and 30.07 signs at the entrance gate. I haven't checked every building but so far as I know none of the buildings themselves are posted and in the meeting that announced the policy change we were told that signs were going to be posted at the gate --implying that the buildings would not be posted. The signs at the gate say that concealed and open carry is prohibited "on the property." One of the guys in our department is an ex full time LEO and current reserve LEO and he says that signs at the gate are invalid.

Here is the relevant part of the company policy (company info redacted with XXXXXXX):

NO WEAPONS OF ANY TYPE ARE ALLOWED ON XXXXXXX PREMISES, PROPERTY, VEHICLES, OR WORK LOCATIONS INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, HANDGUNS AND RIFLES, KNIVES (UNLESS SUCH A KNIFE IS A REGULAR TOOL ON THE JOB), CROSS-BOWS, BOW AND ARROWS, AIR-PISTOLS, AIR-RIFLES, DARTS, EXPLOSIVES, TOXIC AGENTS OR ANY OTHER DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES DESIGNED TO INFLICT INJURY OR CAUSE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (E.G. BRASS-KNUCKLES, NUN-CHAKU, ETC.).

Employees are not permitted to openly carry weapons on XXXXXX premises, property, vehicles, or work locations, or at any time while on duty or performing any work functions for the XXXXXXX regardless of location, pursuant to Texas Penal Code Section 30.07.
The sole exception to this policy is that employees may store or transport legally owned firearms or ammunition that are lawfully possessed and locked in the employee’s own private vehicle on XXXXXXXX-owned parking lots or areas. Employees working at non-XXXXXXX-owned locations are required to abide by weapons policies with additional restrictions in place at those locations.

Strangely, the policy prohibits weapons on the company property but only mentions OC. The actual wording would seem to allow CC but given the 30.06 sign posted at the entrance gate the intention is to also prohibit CC.

I'm interested in how others here interpret the policy, the legal implications, and what seems to be a confused application of the law and policy. I do not want to violate the law. As I have a good job and desire to remain employed I do not intend to violate company policy. Some thoughts and questions....

1. How does the 30.06 sign at the entrance gate affect CC on the property outside of the buildings? For example, would I be in violation of the law if I was CC in a parking area or other area outside any building or just in violation of company policy?

2. I assume that if the buildings are not posted that visitors are not legally prohibited from CC....or is the 30.06 sign at the entrance gate a legal prohibition for any place on the property? It seems like an authorized visitor could legally enter and park and still CC if the building he is visiting isn't posted but I am unsure given the nature of the site described above.

3. As I read the policy it prohibits all carry on company property but with regard to performing work functions at other locations on OC is prohibited.

4. Can the company legally prohibit OC in a parking area with the 30.07 sign at the entrance? This question really applies to visitors as an employee would obviously be in violation of company policy.

I guess this really boils down to what legal status the fenced in property has.....does that enclosure make it equivalent to a building? If so, is a gun in your private vehicle a violation of the law even thought it is authorized by company policy? Or is CC in a privately owned vehicle essentially legal anywhere except those facilities where possession of a firearm is prohibited by federal law?

1. The 30.06, if compliant, on the entrance gate prohibits carrying, concealed under the authority of a LTC on the property enclosed by the fence, however it does not prohibit concealed carry in your vehicle under MPA. Also, the parking lot law makes it illegal for the company to prohibit firearms in your car if you are an employee.

2. Assuming the PROPERTY enclosed by the fence includes the buildings, the 30.06 would be valid for the entire campus including the buildings.

3. Company can prohibit by policy carry outside of your vehicle, concealed or otherwise on their property. I suppose they can prohibit it by policy on other property not under their control, but you can't get arrested. You'll have to ask about their POLICY, for off premises work. My company's is follow the rules of the client and applicable law.

4. Yes they can legally prohibit OC by employees and non-employees on their PROPERTY by posting a compliant 30.07, since OC is not allowed by MPA.

[VMI77]

IANAL but you were verbally given notice on both counts at the meeting where they announced the policy change, therefore CC and OC are off limits to you.

Now, based on what you have stated the sign on the gate says, it is not a valid sign and does not prohibit either except that you were given verbal notice. The parking lot, per your quote is invalid. However, OC in the parking lot would fall under policy and probably get you terminated.

Yes, I accept that regardless of how the policy is worded we were effectively given notice and and CC and OC is off limits...so I now sit at work with an empty holster.

[VMI77]

1. The 30.06, if compliant, on the entrance gate prohibits carrying, concealed under the authority of a LTC on the property enclosed by the fence, however it does not prohibit concealed carry in your vehicle under MPA. Also, the parking lot law makes it illegal for the company to prohibit firearms in your car if you are an employee.

2. Assuming the PROPERTY enclosed by the fence includes the buildings, the 30.06 would be valid for the entire campus including the buildings.

3. Company can prohibit by policy carry outside of your vehicle, concealed or otherwise on their property. I suppose they can prohibit it by policy on other property not under their control, but you can't get arrested. You'll have to ask about their POLICY, for off premises work. My company's is follow the rules of the client and applicable law.

4. Yes they can legally prohibit OC by employees and non-employees on their PROPERTY by posting a compliant 30.07, since OC is not allowed by MPA.

That ^^^^ is pretty much how I've been looking at it except that I was uncertain about the legal status of the property inside the fence (yes, the buildings are also inside the fence). At a glance the signs looked compliant. I didn't focus on that because I am prohibited from carrying by policy anyway.

I'm not too concerned about other property because the one place I go to in Austin on 99% of my trips has always been posted 30.06. However, now that carrying on company property is prohibited I will no longer travel in a company vehicle....I'll just use my own and eat the expense.

The people most affected by the change are those employees who have to travel in company vehicles and work in remote locations and now have no means of defending themselves....particularly female employees who sometimes travel alone. For the first time in years I am at my desk with an empty holster.

[Oldgringo]

What it boils down to is this: how much do you like/need your job? IANAL either, but you, et al, have been given notice/s that guns are not allowed.....and that is a fact