USPS in store question.

[bear94]

I'm going to mail off something tomorrow and it got me thinking. The post office that I have always used is a USPS satellite office that is inside a store called quips and quotes. I know that we can't carry in the post office since they are under federal law but I was wondering about this instance? The store itself doesn't have 30.06/07 signs but I'm curious if the post office section is its own little entity so to speak. I never gave it any thought in the past but I am now since I have my LTC.


Thanks.

[The Annoyed Man]

USPS in places like your local supermarket are not on federal property. You can carry into the store (unless it is posted) and walk right up to the USPS counter and do your business.

[C-dub]

USPS in places like your local supermarket are not on federal property. You can carry into the store (unless it is posted) and walk right up to the USPS counter and do your business.

I'm gonna have to find me one of those near me. Then, if I could only have them take my packages they want to deliver to my house that require a signature when we're not home to that place for me to retrieve instead of the one on federal property.

[chasfm11]

USPS in places like your local supermarket are not on federal property. You can carry into the store (unless it is posted) and walk right up to the USPS counter and do your business.

I'm gonna have to find me one of those near me. Then, if I could only have them take my packages they want to deliver to my house that require a signature when we're not home to that place for me to retrieve instead of the one on federal property.

There may be a solution.
https://www.theupsstore.com/mailboxes
Given the thefts off the porch, I've considered doing this myself. Amazon is using the USPS for for a service called "the last mile". Amazon apparently deliver Amazon packages to a USPS facility who then takes it to your house. USPS even delivers those on Sundays. Since the UPS stores have pretty good hours, I was thinking that the cost of box could easily be out-weighed by the improved security.

As far as regular USPS business, there is a dry cleaner not far from us that has a USPS counter. They can handle just about anything that the main USPS office can except the pickup of mail from a hold. I haven't been near the regular postal building in years.

[jmorris]

I've had an UPS Store mailbox for years because of the security issue (I did have a package stolen), plus making it to the local post office in time after work was impossible. Recently the owner's daughter moved into the house across the street which had been rented out. She told me she found several packages addressed to people in the neighborhood. I'm guessing the prior occupant's 10 year old had been talking them.

UPS Store will also sign for packages.

UPS and FedEx both do the last mile thing and I've had problems with both. My FIL did not have a mailbox up at his rural home so post office did not deliver at all there. He used a PO box in town. Sent him a package through FedEx but it went the last mile route. Never made it.

[The Wall]

We have one near where I live. The employees aren't even USPS. You can tell because they have more than one speed.

[Pariah3j]

I no longer refer to them as USPS but the USPOS

[cb1000rider]

Years ago I bought a postage printer. It's probably saved me days (I ship stuff a lot) in terms of preventing waiting at the post office. It's also the least expensive way you can ship generally speaking...

Even if you have to drop it off, being able to print and have a record of that postage typically saves you a lot of time.

[thetexan]

I'm going to mail off something tomorrow and it got me thinking. The post office that I have always used is a USPS satellite office that is inside a store called quips and quotes. I know that we can't carry in the post office since they are under federal law but I was wondering about this instance? The store itself doesn't have 30.06/07 signs but I'm curious if the post office section is its own little entity so to speak. I never gave it any thought in the past but I am now since I have my LTC.


Thanks.

You can't carry in the building or portion thereof of a Post office because of 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1. 232, being a promulgated regulation, extends the prohibition to the entire postal property and 39 USC 410 gives superiority to 232 over any Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds...that would otherwise subjugate 232 to it.

This is why you can park in the parking lot of the VA or Social Security building or Federal Courthouse. But not a post office.

tex

[ScottDLS]

I'm going to mail off something tomorrow and it got me thinking. The post office that I have always used is a USPS satellite office that is inside a store called quips and quotes. I know that we can't carry in the post office since they are under federal law but I was wondering about this instance? The store itself doesn't have 30.06/07 signs but I'm curious if the post office section is its own little entity so to speak. I never gave it any thought in the past but I am now since I have my LTC.


Thanks.

You can't carry in the building or portion thereof of a Post office because of 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1. 232, being a promulgated regulation, extends the prohibition to the entire postal property and 39 USC 410 gives superiority to 232 over any Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds...that would otherwise subjugate 232 to it.

This is why you can park in the parking lot of the VA or Social Security building or Federal Courthouse. But not a post office.

tex

And what is the criminal penalty for violating 39 CFR 232i? if you are, in fact, violating it by leaving a firearm in your car? 39 USC 410 does NOT extend 18 USC 930. It stands by itself as the enabling statute for 39 CFR and it contains the sanctions for violating it...

That would be a fine not to exceed $50 and up to 30 days jail.... Good luck getting the AUSA to take that one to to a federal jury. Also in the absence of a posting forbidding firearms on the property, it would be very hard to get a conviction under 39 USC 410. there's also the consideration that leaving a gun in the car while you park on postal property may not meet the definition of "carrying" under the federal statute. Lastly the interpretation of the regulation is contradicted by USPS own practice of allowing firearms to be shipped through the mail to FFL holders (including C&R).

so in the scheme of things I'm a lot more nervous about driving through a school zone with a long gun, than I am parking at the post office with my pistol in the console.

[thetexan]

I'm going to mail off something tomorrow and it got me thinking. The post office that I have always used is a USPS satellite office that is inside a store called quips and quotes. I know that we can't carry in the post office since they are under federal law but I was wondering about this instance? The store itself doesn't have 30.06/07 signs but I'm curious if the post office section is its own little entity so to speak. I never gave it any thought in the past but I am now since I have my LTC.


Thanks.

You can't carry in the building or portion thereof of a Post office because of 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1. 232, being a promulgated regulation, extends the prohibition to the entire postal property and 39 USC 410 gives superiority to 232 over any Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds...that would otherwise subjugate 232 to it.

This is why you can park in the parking lot of the VA or Social Security building or Federal Courthouse. But not a post office.

tex

And what is the criminal penalty for violating 39 CFR 232i? if you are, in fact, violating it by leaving a firearm in your car? 39 USC 410 does NOT extend 18 USC 930. It stands by itself as the enabling statute for 39 CFR and it contains the sanctions for violating it...

That would be a fine not to exceed $50 and up to 30 days jail.... Good luck getting the AUSA to take that one to to a federal jury. Also in the absence of a posting forbidding firearms on the property, it would be very hard to get a conviction under 39 USC 410. there's also the consideration that leaving a gun in the car while you park on postal property may not meet the definition of "carrying" under the federal statute. Lastly the interpretation of the regulation is contradicted by USPS own practice of allowing firearms to be shipped through the mail to FFL holders (including C&R).

so in the scheme of things I'm a lot more nervous about driving through a school zone with a long gun, than I am parking at the post office with my pistol in the console.

I think you misread.

There are two reasons you can't carry at PO, 930 and 232. If 232 didn't exist 930 would stop you but only in the building and at an expense of 1 year in prison. 232 extends, in effect, the restriction to the entire property. 18 USC 3571 establishes the penalties for violations. 410 shelters the postal service from the effects of certain other federal regulations.

The post office no more contradicts its rule to prohibit weapons by allowing them to be shipped through their service than does the state of Texas contradicts its rule of carrying weapons past the secure area of an airport by allowing weapons to be properly checked in baggage.


Tex

[ScottDLS]

I'm going to mail off something tomorrow and it got me thinking. The post office that I have always used is a USPS satellite office that is inside a store called quips and quotes. I know that we can't carry in the post office since they are under federal law but I was wondering about this instance? The store itself doesn't have 30.06/07 signs but I'm curious if the post office section is its own little entity so to speak. I never gave it any thought in the past but I am now since I have my LTC.


Thanks.

You can't carry in the building or portion thereof of a Post office because of 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1. 232, being a promulgated regulation, extends the prohibition to the entire postal property and 39 USC 410 gives superiority to 232 over any Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds...that would otherwise subjugate 232 to it.

This is why you can park in the parking lot of the VA or Social Security building or Federal Courthouse. But not a post office.

tex

And what is the criminal penalty for violating 39 CFR 232i? if you are, in fact, violating it by leaving a firearm in your car? 39 USC 410 does NOT extend 18 USC 930. It stands by itself as the enabling statute for 39 CFR and it contains the sanctions for violating it...

That would be a fine not to exceed $50 and up to 30 days jail.... Good luck getting the AUSA to take that one to to a federal jury. Also in the absence of a posting forbidding firearms on the property, it would be very hard to get a conviction under 39 USC 410. there's also the consideration that leaving a gun in the car while you park on postal property may not meet the definition of "carrying" under the federal statute. Lastly the interpretation of the regulation is contradicted by USPS own practice of allowing firearms to be shipped through the mail to FFL holders (including C&R).

so in the scheme of things I'm a lot more nervous about driving through a school zone with a long gun, than I am parking at the post office with my pistol in the console.

I think you misread.

There are two reasons you can't carry at PO, 930 and 232. If 232 didn't exist 930 would stop you but only in the building and at an expense of 1 year in prison. 232 extends, in effect, the restriction to the entire property. 18 USC 3571 establishes the penalties for violations. 410 shelters the postal service from the effects of certain other federal regulations.

The post office no more contradicts its rule to prohibit weapons by allowing them to be shipped through their service than does the state of Texas contradicts its rule of carrying weapons past the secure area of an airport by allowing weapons to be properly checked in baggage.


Tex

I believe you're misreading the way Federal criminal code is enforced. Regulations must be enabled by a law passed by congress, the penalty for violating such regulation is set out in the law being violated, not some other part of the USC.

If 39 USC 410 didn't make 18 USC 930 applicable to a postal "facility" then it wouldn't be a federal misdemeanor to carry in one. The 39 USC 410 doesn't change the definition of "facility" in 18 USC 930, it only makes it applicable to what would otherwise not be a federal "facility".

The regulation 39 CFR 232 is only valid because 39 USC 410 says it is. And it set's out the penalty as that of an infraction (30 days in jail) and until 2010 a $50 fine (now the fine is up to the judge). Also that is for CARRYING on postal property, which is not necessarily the same definition as in Texas PC chapter 46.

Regardless there IS case law regarding carrying a firearm on postal property, in the particular case of a USPS employee who was fired for having a gun at work. Initially he was charged under 18 USC 930 and that was dismissed by the trial court as not applicable. Eventually he was found to have violated 39 CFR 410 and an appeals court and said that was enough justification for firing him. I didn't find the detail of whether he was fined the $50 and got the 30 days, but he was fired.

Also 18 USC 930 requires a posting to convict, AND specifically exempts parking areas (except in some cases in federal courts). So leaving your gun in the car while buying stamps, or driving through the parking lot, would at most be a 39 CFR 232 violation. Even that may be difficult to sustain in the absence of some warning sign.

There was also the case of a NASA employee charged for having a gun on his car on the property...different CFR, but also an infraction, and he got off because there was no warning.

[thetexan]

Here is the applicable law....

*************************************************************************************************************
§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

(p) Penalties and other law.
(1) Alleged violations of these rules and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region involved.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 (given below and can be quite sizeble) or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.


18 U.S. Code § 3571 - Sentence of fine

(a)In General.—
A defendant who has been found guilty of an offense may be sentenced to pay a fine.
(b)Fines for Individuals.—Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, an individual who has been found guilty of an offense may be fined not more than the greatest of—
(1) the amount specified in the law setting forth the offense;
(2) the applicable amount under subsection (d) of this section;
(3) for a felony, not more than $250,000;
(4) for a misdemeanor resulting in death, not more than $250,000;
(5) for a Class A misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $100,000;
(6) for a Class B or C misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $5,000; or
(7) for an infraction, not more than $5,000. [here is the smallest fine]

39 U.S.C. § 410 : US Code - Section 410: Application of other laws

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service. \

18 U.S. Code § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

**********************************************************************************************************

As you can see 410 simply states precisely which other federal laws or regulations, of which USC 930 is included, that are or are not applicable to certain and various powers of the Postal Service. This places all such applicable excluded laws, rules or regulations subordinate and not applicable to the exercise of those enumerated [powers given to the postal service. Beyond that 410, in and of itself, does not regulate the postal service.

The answer to the original question lies in 232.1 This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;

tex

[der Teufel]

USPS in places like your local supermarket are not on federal property. You can carry into the store (unless it is posted) and walk right up to the USPS counter and do your business.

This is correct.

However, realize that these 'private branch outposts' of the Post Office aren't necessarily bound by Post Office rates. They provide a service for which they may charge whatever they think is reasonable. In other words, you'll usually pay extra for the convenience.

[ScottDLS]

232.1 Conduct on postal property.
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.

All this section does is say that LAWS (like 18 USC 930) that are applicable to federal property, are applicable IN THE SAME WAY to (most) postal property. It doesn't change 18 USC 930 to apply to non-facilities or buildings.

If you OPEN CARRY (to use a ridiculous example) across a postal parking lot you could at most be charged with a federal INFRACTION under 39 CFR 232, which has a MAXIMUM penalty of 30 days in jail and until 2010 a $50 fine. Now the fine is determined by the judge and can be up to the maximum for an infraction.

My points are:

Leaving a gun in your car on postal property may not even be illegal under 39 CFR 232, based on the definition of "carry" and "store", but even if it is illegal, it is an infraction (same as posting handbills on postal property).

It is NOT a violation of 18 USC 930 unless you carry into a building (and then only if they are posted, which most are). 39 USC 410 cannot CHANGE the Title 18 law to expand the definition of Federal Facility to PROPERTY. There have been federal cases on this, and they have come down in the favor of the defendant. In one case finding that the person was innocent due to failure to post the regulation (thus avoiding the INFRACTION) and the other specifically finding that 18 USC 930 only applied to postal FACILITIES, not postal property.