Legal Definition of Shouldering

[zmcgooga]

Does any one know if the BATF has a definition of what they consider shouldering a weapon? I've just finished about a two hour search on the topic and the only articles that I can find are about the SIG arm brace.

I'm curios because I just bought an AR pistol and while I know that shouldering it (what most people consider shouldering) makes it considered an SBR. But what if for instance I had it butted up against my chest and not "shouldered". I'm not trying to skirt the law and I know that if I was ever in a circumstance were it was being question it would probably how the person interpreted the law, I just couldn't find a solid definition for it.

[troglodyte]

I believe why you mostly found the Sig brace references are because shouldering applies to a pistol that has been modified to be shouldered. The BTAF ruled that a Sig Brace (or similar) was a modification that, if shouldered, would make it an SBR.

If you just have a pistol buffer tube then you can shoulder it all day, no different than if you held your Glock 19 up to your shoulder and fired. The pistol buffer tube is an integrally designed part of the pistol and therefore is not a modification, no matter how you hold it.

I'm sure others will be along to quote scripture and verse but you can shoulder a pistol buffer tube all you want or can.

[bulletslap]

I own a SBR on a Form 1 that has a SIG-Sauer Brace on it, and I am just waiting for some overzealous busy body to call me out on "shouldering" it

[The Annoyed Man]

If you just have a pistol buffer tube then you can shoulder it all day, no different than if you held your Glock 19 up to your shoulder and fired.

I'm pretty sure that if I held my Glock 19 butted up against my shoulder and pulled the trigger, it would leave a mark.

May not be illegal, but I'd probably wish it was!

[MadMonkey]

I don't shoot shirtless so none of my pistols have touched my shoulder.

I quit caring long ago though.

[Paladin]

This is the official ATF OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF “STABILIZING BRACES”

I am no lawyer, but can tell you that they are on very weak ground with this letter (which is not the law, but an ATF interpretation of the law) and it is a complete reversal of a previous ATF determination (FTB #99146)

Does anybody know of any successful prosecutions related to this? I doubt the ATF would ever try to bring the most recent determination to court as they would probably loose and they seem to have success in scaring people with their creative abuse of the English language.

[Rhino1]

My understanding (FWIW) was that the ATF originally ruled an AR pistol with Sig brace was a pistol, not an SBR. Supposedly they kept getting inquiries, "are you SURE it's a pistol?" This caused them to re-evaluate their position and modify their ruling. I bought one in Nov '14. When all this dust kicked up, I submitted a Form 1 and, after a wait of a few months, converted it to an SBR.

[zmcgooga]

Thanks for all the replies yal! I didn't know it was ok to shoulder the buffer tube as I thought that might be considered "redesigning" or "manufacturing" according to the ATF

Just to be clear I don't have a Sig brace or any other stabilizer at the moment, but if you did brace it against your chest, right where your pectoralis major is, is that still shouldering?

Really wish there weren't so many "common sense" laws that you have to interpret just to have fun at the range.

[OldCannon]

Crikey, people flood the ATF with these kind of questions and they just keep publishing guidance that implies a more and more narrow "legal" usage window. I'll give you the best advice I can that I guarantee will keep you out of trouble (and I'm paraphrasing "off the record" guidance given from my last ATF inspection):
1) Stop asking these kind of questions, it just brings attention to your intentions and creates a legal trail
2) Don't "shoulder" any type of pistol in front of an ATF agent. (No, they don't have sneaky undercover agents wandering around gun ranges hoping to catch somebody)

[Abraham]

How well do 16" barrel, but very short rifles like the Steyr Aug with an overall length of just 28.15 inches compare to AR pistols?

If the Steyr Aug compares favorably (and I don't know if it does - I'm asking) why get an AR pistol that can't be shouldered while the S.A. can be shouldered, is short and shoots the same caliber cartridge?

[K.Mooneyham]

Crikey, people flood the ATF with these kind of questions and they just keep publishing guidance that implies a more and more narrow "legal" usage window. I'll give you the best advice I can that I guarantee will keep you out of trouble (and I'm paraphrasing "off the record" guidance given from my last ATF inspection):
1) Stop asking these kind of questions, it just brings attention to your intentions and creates a legal trail
2) Don't "shoulder" any type of pistol in front of an ATF agent. (No, they don't have sneaky undercover agents wandering around gun ranges hoping to catch somebody)

I'm not sure how many active ATF field agents there are, but I'm guessing there can't be a huge number of them. So, here is my question brought about by your number 2) item. If they don't have "sneaky undercover agents wandering around gun ranges", how would they ever hope to catch someone shouldering an AR pistol with a Sig Brace? I'm not talking about people making videos where the individual(s) are creating evidence, but just run-of-the-mill folks doing that? And if they aren't actively engaged in trying to bust people for doing that, why even promulgate a rule against it? The whole thing smacks of bureaucrats making rules for the sake of making rules, something that way too many government agencies are guilty of doing. For the record, I do NOT own an AR pistol, nor a Sig Brace, nor any similar item.

[parabelum]

The whole AR pistol shouldering/SBR is malarkey. Throw in the suppressors there as well.

So, at 1' 4" you're legal, and at 1' 15/16" you're a felon potentially without proper bureaucratic junk.

And suppressors? It's not like in the movies where there is zero noise. Only a fat bureaucrat would determine that trying to preserve your hearing while enjoying your 2A right would require extra paperwork.

I hope at some point Trump and Reublicans in the Congress take a serious look at this (and many other) ridiculous regulations/infringements.

[ScottDLS]

Crikey, people flood the ATF with these kind of questions and they just keep publishing guidance that implies a more and more narrow "legal" usage window. I'll give you the best advice I can that I guarantee will keep you out of trouble (and I'm paraphrasing "off the record" guidance given from my last ATF inspection):
1) Stop asking these kind of questions, it just brings attention to your intentions and creates a legal trail
2) Don't "shoulder" any type of pistol in front of an ATF agent. (No, they don't have sneaky undercover agents wandering around gun ranges hoping to catch somebody)

I'm not sure how many active ATF field agents there are, but I'm guessing there can't be a huge number of them. So, here is my question brought about by your number 2) item. If they don't have "sneaky undercover agents wandering around gun ranges", how would they ever hope to catch someone shouldering an AR pistol with a Sig Brace? I'm not talking about people making videos where the individual(s) are creating evidence, but just run-of-the-mill folks doing that? And if they aren't actively engaged in trying to bust people for doing that, why even promulgate a rule against it? The whole thing smacks of bureaucrats making rules for the sake of making rules, something that way too many government agencies are guilty of doing. For the record, I do NOT own an AR pistol, nor a Sig Brace, nor any similar item.

They're all too busy setting up roadblocks in school zones to stop people from out of state and off duty LEO's....

[bigtek]

and make sure you pay the use tax to Austin when you buy ammo online.

[MadMonkey]

How well do 16" barrel, but very short rifles like the Steyr Aug with an overall length of just 28.15 inches compare to AR pistols?

If the Steyr Aug compares favorably (and I don't know if it does - I'm asking) why get an AR pistol that can't be shouldered while the S.A. can be shouldered, is short and shoots the same caliber cartridge?

1. Bullpups tend to have questionable triggers. ARs have plenty of options in that department.

2. Price

3. Compatibility (not all AUGs or similar rifles will use the same mags, and they definitely won't share most other parts that are common in the ARs most of us already have).

4. Ergonomics. Different manual of arms. Doesn't bother some people, but the familiarity of the AR line is more comfortable to others.

I'm sure there are more reasons. As for shouldering, well, that depends on how much you care about such things.