Carry Ammo

[gregthehand]

Last week I ran into a guy who has a lot of background with shooting, and ammunition. He has shot a .45 at people and seen it's affects on running tagets. I won't get into his specifics other than to say yes he's the real deal, no he deosn't shoot a lot of people in the States. Anyway when we were talking the subject of my normal carry piece came up. He stated that he had used a couple of different brands of hollow point ammo and had finally setteld on FMJ 230 grain .45 ACP. I asked him to expound on this and he said that even though everything seemed to drop people well FMJ was the only one that consistently done so, as well as consistently functioned well. I have noticed that I shoot more accuratley with FMJ, probably because it's what I train with. I asked him about penetration and he said that it wasn't really an issue for him but that it would be hard to for sure say that one had more velocity after leaving the body than the other. Anyway I've been giving a lot of thought now to just carrying FMJ ammo. The part of me that has spent lots of money on Hollow Point ammo wants to think that it was worth it, but the practical side of me wants to say that I probably don't need to spend this (extra) money anymore. Thoughts?

[razoraggie]

27 views and no reply....i'll post what others must be thinking as well:

[Mithras61]

Many veterans that I know feel that FMJ is more reliable than JHP, and won't use anything else in their 1911s.

I don't agree that FMJ is more reliable. I don't agree that FMJ is more accurate than JHP.

In my experience, if you use 230g FMJ for practice and 230g JHP for carry ammo, they tend to shoot exactly the same. If the 230g JHP feeds reliably in your 1911, and you WANT to carry JHP, then go ahead. I don't like the 185g JHP in the same brand as the 230g I carry, but I don't find that it shoots just like my practice ammo, so I won't carry it.

[RPBrown]

I do alternate FMJ and JHP 2 x 2 in almost everything I carry. Eliminates the controversy just in case.

[gregthehand]

27 views and no reply....i'll post what others must be thinking as well:

Don't worry it's nothing illegal, or even immoral as far as I'm concerned. I really trust this guy's opinion and I don't feel that he is messing around or telling tales. He has no need to. I just don't want to abandon my hollow points!!

*** Edit to add that I didn't just casually run into this guy for the first time. I've known him since about 1996 ***

[Skiprr]

Well, ya know, there are bullets, and then there are bullets.

This is specifically about .45 ACP. Hark back to the reason the Browning model of 1911 came about. The smaller .38 in use by the U.S. military was proving ineffective in stopping Moro warriors in the Philippines. (I lived in the Philippines for six years, and the Moro existed then--I had interaction with them for several months over two years--and still exist now, to my knowledge.)

An ordnance board decided a .45 cartridge was needed. J.M. Browning was working for Colt and had already designed a gun around a cartridge very much like today's .38 Super. Browning re-engineered his pistol for a .45 cartridge of his own design.

The rest is history.

Me, I carry .45 ACP Speer Gold Dots.

[badkarma56]

I've heard of LEO's carrying 230 gr. FMJ as duty ammo. Due to the large dimensions and relatively slow velocity of the .45 ACP bullet, this is one of the few calibers where FMJ ammo will offer the desired effect (i.e., deep wound cavity, relatively low risk of over-penetration/ricochet, etc.) in a defense scenario.

FWIW, I use 230 gr. Winchester Ranger-T hollow points in my USP45.

[razoraggie]

Speer Gold Dots are pretty nice as well. Good penetration with good expansion. Kind of a "cake AND ice-cream" round if you ask me.

[mr surveyor]

In .45, .357 and 9mm, I do prefer good jhp's. In the .380 and .32 I still believe that the rounds are a bit anemic for winter time use of JHP's and prefer an alternating mix of jhp and fmj.

[Abraham]

Peter Hathaway Capstick, hunting guide in Africa, (from Texas by the way) always used FMJ on big game as it's needed to get past tough hide and deep into vitals.

At times, clothing can be equated to tough hide. So...?

I've never gotten an absolutely definitive answer regarding this subject when it comes to personal defense round choice. That said, I've often wondered if the use of JHP's are a wise choice?

On the flip side, I'm concerned about over penetration and the horrible danger that presents to innocent people down range.

If one chooses to go the FMJ route, would white box, Winchesters be adequate?

[Xander]

Peter Hathaway Capstick, hunting guide in Africa, (from Texas by the way) always used FMJ on big game as it's needed to get past tough hide and deep into vitals.

At times, clothing can be equated to tough hide. So...?\

Please note that rifle rounds are a totally different ballgame than handgun rounds. There are different sets of considerations for their ballistics and wound profiling. Rounds that are push bullets to 2500 or 3000 feet per second vs, say, 800 or 850 for a big .45 are simply a different class of projectiles, just as mortar rounds are different than rifle rounds.

As well, big game hunting has an entirely separate set of considerations when compared to people-stopping.

I've never gotten an absolutely definitive answer regarding this subject when it comes to personal defense round choice. That said, I've often wondered if the use of JHP's are a wise choice?

Carry what you're comfortable with. That said, there are very good reasons that *every* significant law enforcement agency in the United States (if not every law enforcement agency in the US, period) has gone to hollowpoint rounds, even though FMJs are cheaper and agencies are often quite price sensitive. They simply work better. Every reasonably scientific study ever done shows this. So does analysis of thousands of office involved shootings. Not perfect, of course, but when lead is coming up-range, they (and I) want every statistical advantage that can be had.

There are lots of things that ballistic experts disagree on...Nearly everything in fact. But I've never, ever heard even a single reputable ballistics expert claim that FMJs are just as good or better than hollowpoints for a general purpose defensive handgun round.

[Abraham]

Xander,

Thanks for the great information.

I've been carrying Speer Gold Dots in JHP, but wasn't really convinced they were the right thing.

Now, I am. At least as far the JHP question is concerned.

Of course, which JHP is the best all around personal defense choice a civilian can carry is the next question?

But hey, one thing at a time and thanks again.

[Xander]

Xander,

Thanks for the great information.

I've been carrying Speer Gold Dots in JHP, but wasn't really convinced they were the right thing.

Now, I am. At least as far the JHP question is concerned.

Of course, which JHP is the best all around personal defense choice a civilian can carry is the next question?

But hey, one thing at a time and thanks again.

I carry GDHPs as well. They perform well in testing, they're widely used by LE, and everything I've heard is that the departments who use them (NYPD, for one example) have been very happy with how they've performed in shootings. They're as good at intermediate barrier penetration as just about any JHP (with the probable exception of DPX) and because they're bonded they don't suffer from jacket separation issues that some of the the older HPs have.

The only round I personally could forsee switching to would be DPX, but that would only be with more LE street results to examine, and as expensive as it is, agencies aren't rushing to switch to it. It looks very promising however.

That's not to say that there aren't other good constructions out there...There certainly are. I'd be perfectly comfortable carrying Federal HSTs as well, or Winchester Ranger Bonded. For a house gun, I'd add Ranger-T, Federal Hydra-Shok, and Federal Personal Defense to that list, among others.

These are all personal opinions or course, based on the study that I've done, and your mileage may vary. Besides, to para-phase Evan Marshall, the ammunition you chose is probably about 5% of the equation, so if you're comfortable with what you carry, you shoot it quickly, accurately, and confidently, then don't sweat it to much. Particularly if it's a modern JHP.


Again, just my penny and a half. :-)

[USMC-COL]

Great debate. Good dialogue. The one sure thing we can probably all agree on is that the dialogue won't be settled here or today. I know there are many studies and street results data showing JHP bullets perform better than FMJ bullets under most conditions. I carry JHP ammo in all of my calibers. But for those of us whose "business office" is/was beyond our shores, and who are/were relegated to only using FMJ bullets, I can only say that 45 ACP 230 grain FMJ ammo never let me down during crunch time. When people are wearing tactical gear and bullets have to go through vests and magazines and pouches and lots of other stuff, I have no problems with FMJ bullets. That is not the situation most of us would be faced.

Just a random thought.

[Photoman]

I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep if I had to carry 230 ball.