"Why do you need that thing in church?"

[Keith B]

OK folks, sorry to put the brakes on, but this has moved into a discussion of religion which is against the rules. Please discuss carrying to protect, but refrain form the theological debates.

[dewayneward]

I am trying to think of the best place to be should something bad happen. My oldest is in another room and I am usually keeping my 3 yr old under control in the seat.

I am trying to think of a tactical position. away from doors (back, side, front, etc.) in the middle, towards the front near the pastor. Just imagine a on floor area with doors in back, back sides, and front sides.

I am thinking that my normal seat, (furthest back near a backside door) may not be the best place because if some whackjob burst in, he'd pop me first (since I was right there). I get there, purposely, late and sit in the back after I drop my oldest son off. This is also the closest to where he is when he is in the other room.

I am almost guessing that middle front may be the way to go...unless the guy is gunning for the pastor or something.

All I will say was that it was AWESOME carrying in church last Sunday morning.

[seamusTX]

Depending upon how the church is built, it may offer cover. A Gothic structure generally has solid interior pillars. Some churches have interior corners where you could get out of sight of the doors.

A plain, rectangular structure, is a much more difficult environment.

Every church should also have some kind of doormen, ushers, or a formally organized security team to control who enters. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum.

- Jim

[mr.72]

Our church has a "ramp" that leads up to one side of the stage, and a wall between that ramp and the rest of the building (we call this "back stage"). There are doors to the main hall at the base of the ramp, and a door from the outside parking lot right there exactly next to the ramp doors. So we have a major security risk if someone comes in that back door, takes a left, and walks straight up the ramp to the stage. They would do so completely undetected except that we have a security team member stationed at that entry door 100% of the time to prevent this scenario. This security guy is not guaranteed to be armed or even presumed to be (it's members volunteering for the security team, just normal church members). The rest of the doors are not watched during services, and anyone could easily come in. However I think when service is not in session is actually a much higher risk time, because nobody is guarding any of these doors. They have mag-locks on them and require a card-key access when the church is not open for business.

Anyway, I have been through scenarios in this building in my mind many times. Most likely if someone comes in, they will come in the back of the church opposite the stage (normal place people come in the room). Then the escape route for the people on the stage will be via this ramp, and evac outside the building. I spend most of my time at church either on this backstage ramp or on the stage actual. If someone comes in shooting, I am going to grab, push, and drag people onto that ramp as fast as I can, peek out the backstage door to the hallway to be sure there is no BG waiting there too, and if it's clear, send people outside of the building into the parking lot. The congregation members inside the church on the floor are sitting ducks. There is one emergency exit in the far corner on one wall, no exits on the stage wall, and a total of three exits on the other two walls. If the BG comes in the back of the room, then the BG will be between the whole congregation and all but one of their exits.

I know our security team leader and I have talked with him many times about this scenario and they are trying to maintain a careful balance of security vs. making the church more "open". However, if someone is determined to get in and shoot people, realistically there is no way to stop it from happening. This is a legitimate concern for a church this size (5000-6000 members).

[Excaliber]

Anyway, I have been through scenarios in this building in my mind many times. Most likely if someone comes in, they will come in the back of the church opposite the stage (normal place people come in the room). Then the escape route for the people on the stage will be via this ramp, and evac outside the building. I spend most of my time at church either on this backstage ramp or on the stage actual. If someone comes in shooting, I am going to grab, push, and drag people onto that ramp as fast as I can, peek out the backstage door to the hallway to be sure there is no BG waiting there too, and if it's clear, send people outside of the building into the parking lot. The congregation members inside the church on the floor are sitting ducks. There is one emergency exit in the far corner on one wall, no exits on the stage wall, and a total of three exits on the other two walls. If the BG comes in the back of the room, then the BG will be between the whole congregation and all but one of their exits.

I know our security team leader and I have talked with him many times about this scenario and they are trying to maintain a careful balance of security vs. making the church more "open". However, if someone is determined to get in and shoot people, realistically there is no way to stop it from happening. This is a legitimate concern for a church this size (5000-6000 members).

Does your church have more than one seating level in the rear? If so, the upper level is an ideal position for at least one properly equipped security team member. The high ground is a HUGE tactical advantage.

[mr.72]

Does your church have more than one seating level in the rear? If so, the upper level is an ideal position for at least one properly equipped security team member. The high ground is a HUGE tactical advantage.

No, it's a combo building (interim sanctuary) that will eventually be a gymnasium, so it's basically a giant concrete floor, huge high ceilings, etc. The stage is about 4.5 ft. high though (in order to get a head-to-toe video shot of whoever is on the stage without getting people's heads in the frame).

We do have a media booth with panoramic windows that is on the 2nd floor over the hall and looks over the whole place from the back of the room. I would think that'd be a great place to position security people, but the media people are not likely to embrace the intrusion.

[Fangs]

Hide a good rifle in one of the walls of the media booth.

[dewayneward]

The way you were describing the "security" team, I was thinking "yea, we have those, they are called "greeters". But then I saw that it is a megachurch (5k people) and assume that you would have to have security. Ours is much smaller as in a few hundred. I'll play a little detective and scope out the best place.

[NcongruNt]

The way you were describing the "security" team, I was thinking "yea, we have those, they are called "greeters". But then I saw that it is a megachurch (5k people) and assume that you would have to have security. Ours is much smaller as in a few hundred. I'll play a little detective and scope out the best place.

Looking back at it now, I remember when my old church got more serious about security. We had assigned parking monitors and folks that would walk the halls during the service. I was considerably younger then, but it was about the time Texas passed CHL legislation. Looking back, I realize that some of the regular folks working those jobs are those who I now know are CHL holders, and likely were from the get-go. Our church was also a few hundred. I suspect there were a lot more organized and proactive security measures going on than I ever realized.

[mr.72]

The way you were describing the "security" team, I was thinking "yea, we have those, they are called "greeters". But then I saw that it is a megachurch (5k people) and assume that you would have to have security. Ours is much smaller as in a few hundred. I'll play a little detective and scope out the best place.

Well, we have a dozen or more greeters, two welcome desks with about 4-5 "service hosts" each, a dozen or more ushers, ushers assigned to each pastor, parking team of half a dozen or so guys who monitor and manage parking (that's a big deal when you have 2000 people leaving, and 2000 more arriving, in the space of 30 minutes between services), and then the dedicated security team of about 5-10 guys.

I guess >5000 people is a "megachurch".

[richbrismith]

I Usher and do security at my church and we are talking about carrying after the way things are going- its down right sad!

[Groundhog]

Regarding feeling overly bad about stopping a bg in church; I'd feel remorse wherever it had to happen.

[MD2595]

Here's the reason:

Wedgewood Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas, 1999

[heliguy972]

Because of tradgedy's like this:

"Seven people were killed Wednesday night when a 47-year-old Texas man opened fire during a prayer service for teen-agers at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Tx. "

--Posted September 16, 1999, 7:55pm EDT

I live 15 miles from there, and I never go to church unarmed...

[seamusTX]

Richmond, California, Sunday -- Three men wearing hooded sweatshirts entered a church during services. One of the men shot two teenage males (age 14 and 19). The victims were apparently targeted.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14402008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Richmond is a crime-ridden city with no known redeeming value north of Oakland.

- Jim