IFF

[seamusTX]

Hoi Polloi, if the law-abiding armed citizen is close enough to determine that the shooter is really a berserker shooting people randomly, said law-abiding armed citizen had better fire every round that he has into said berserker as fast as he can until the latter is no longer a threat.

Otherwise he would be in a running gunfight in a crowded place, a recipe for several kinds of disaster.

We have gone over a thousand times the difficulty of determining whether a "man with a gun" is an attacker or defender.

That's why I suggested the back door, bathroom, or whatever is available earlier.

Mr. Dickens, your detailed answers are most instructive.

- Jim

[Excaliber]

How do the uniformed officers differentiate between the bad guys and any plainclothes and/ or off-duty cops that may be responding to the same incident? Or do the uniformed guys just shoot them, too?

Surely, there has to be a way.

Well trained officers don't just shoot anyone they see with a gun. Most are well aware of the potential for encounters with off duty LEO's, security guards, CHL holders, shop keepers, etc.

Unless a gun is pointed at the officers, they will nearly always issue verbal challenge commands unless the subject is actively firing at people who appear to be innocents. A well trained officer will do this from behind cover if possible both to protect himself from any rounds that might be fired and also to give himself just a little more time to make decisions if the folks he's dealing with do unexpected things - which they do all the time.

The biggest problem is that some armed good guys (plainclothes / off duty LEO or CHL) respond by turning toward the officers to identify and explain themselves. It's a natural reaction to turn toward someone who shouts at you, but from the officers' perspective, this looks exactly the same as a bad guy turning to shoot the officers. The officers have about 1/10th of a second to figure out what to do. How would you suggest they handle that?

My suggestion is to train yourself to respond to police commands by not turning toward the challenge.Things get worked out much more easily if the "challengee" does exactly what he is told with slow, deliberate movements. One of those challenges will almost certainly be to "drop the gun." This is not the time to demur because it is the latest Wilson Combat Super Duper Has Everything that you just paid $6,000 for. If you're told to drop it, do exactly that. If you don't want to be put in that position, don't have the gun in your hand when police arrive.

When officers see full compliance, they feel less threatened and they will manage the situation to the point where you can explain yourself without being mistaken for a bad guy. Things will get sorted out from there. If they see what appears to be failure to respond to commands combined with actions that appear to create an imminent threat of death (somebody who won't obey police commands turning toward them with gun in hand) the stage is set for tragedy on all sides.

[bdickens]

How do the uniformed officers differentiate between the bad guys and any plainclothes and/ or off-duty cops that may be responding to the same incident? Or do the uniformed guys just shoot them, too?

Surely, there has to be a way.

Well trained officers don't just shoot anyone they see with a gun. Most are well aware of the potential for encounters with off duty LEO's, security guards, CHL holders, shop keepers, etc.

Unless a gun is pointed at the officers, they will nearly always issue verbal challenge commands unless the subject is actively firing at people who appear to be innocents. A well trained officer will do this from behind cover if possible both to protect himself from any rounds that might be fired and also to give himself just a little more time to make decisions if the folks he's dealing with do unexpected things - which they do all the time.

The biggest problem is that some armed good guys (plainclothes / off duty LEO or CHL) respond by turning toward the officers to identify and explain themselves. It's a natural reaction to turn toward someone who shouts at you, but from the officers' perspective, this looks exactly the same as a bad guy turning to shoot the officers. The officers have about 1/10th of a second to figure out what to do. How would you suggest they handle that?

My suggestion is to train yourself to respond to police commands by not turning toward the challenge.Things get worked out much more easily if the "challengee" does exactly what he is told with slow, deliberate movements. One of those challenges will almost certainly be to "drop the gun." This is not the time to demur because it is the latest Wilson Combat Super Duper Has Everything that you just paid $6,000 for. If you're told to drop it, do exactly that. If you don't want to be put in that position, don't have the gun in your hand when police arrive.

When officers see full compliance, they feel less threatened and they will manage the situation to the point where you can explain yourself without being mistaken for a bad guy. Things will get sorted out from there. If they see what appears to be failure to respond to commands combined with actions that appear to create an imminent threat of death (somebody who won't obey police commands turning toward them with gun in hand) the stage is set for tragedy on all sides.

Aha! Just as I suspected.

[SwimFan85]

All bets are off in Nevada.

[G.A. Heath]

Not all officers are well trained, and even the majority that are can have an off day. Just like an officer must prepare for the worst case scenario when dealing with the public, the public must also prepare for the worst case scenario when dealing with police. There have been well publicized reports of police officials saying their officers would shoot anyone with a gun that was not an officer, the most recent instances of these statements have been in regards to Campus Carry. And then you have the "Bad" officers like the one in California who posted on facebook that he would prone anyone open carrying out and if they moved then it was two weeks off. So when you are in a high stress situation with a firearm and law enforcement is involved the best possible outcome almost always involves the officers not seeing a weapon in your hand. Another thing to consider is when you have multiple officers giving conflicting orders, who do you obey to avoid getting shot? Good training after your CHL class will help you learn and avoid these issues.

[chasfm11]

Meth guy walks into WalMart and starts shooting it up. It seems to me that there are two possible places you might be:
1) In direct and close proximity to Meth Guy, meaning you have little to no time to react.
2) Not in direct or close proximity to Meth Guy, meaning you need to be heading to whichever emergency exit is closest to you and not in the direction of the shots.

If you're in position 1, you're lucky if you have time to throw yourself down to the ground and not be visible or shot. If you're in position 2, you're outta there. So we're really only talking about people in position 1, right?

OK, that leaves the Position 1 guy in three possible scenarios:
A) He was shot in the initial attack and is down.
B) The shooter is remaining stationary so that the Friend of CHarLes (CHL holder) remains in the same level of threat.
C) The shooter is moving through the store, either increasing (i) or decreasing (ii) the Friend of CHarLes' risk.

So what would people suggest for the fantasy play-through-the-scenario-in-one's-head response given those situations?

With the idea that I'd rather make my mistakes here than in real life, I'll dive head first into this one.

A. I've been shot. I honestly have no idea how I'd respond. Assuming that I could and the Meth Head was still close enough, I'd probably do my level best to put him on the floor. Crazy guys like this could easily want to finish off the wounded. He is still a threat to me if he has already shot me once and I can still see him. At least I can hope that's what I'd do.
B. If I cannot escape, I'm going to fight. No way am I going to let him control the situation. This assumes that I really don't have a way out. I'd at least try for cover and, if he wasn't focused on me, I'd try to use surprise to the extent that I still had any element of surprise. Trapped, I'm going to try to take the fight to him.
C. - increasing the threat. If I truly have no way out, I'd do my best to surprise him. This assumes that I've heard shots and am trapped. Right now, I would plan to getting as low as possible and trying to use whatever cover is available. Managing stray shots into the ceiling seems like a better way to handle it.
C. - decreasing the threat. If he is giving me an escape lane that is not going to increase my risk, I'm going to do my best to take it. It would also depend on a lot of other things - how far away he has moved, how safe my escape route really is, what my expectation for LEO timing might be. In a lot of cases around our place, LEOs are on scene within two minutes. I'd prefer to let them handle it.

I would personally view arriving LEOs as more of a threat to me than the Meth Head. He may or may not be able to shoot accurately (depending on his past training and current substance level) - I know that the LEOs are going to be accurate. The last thing that I want is a gun in my hand when they arrive. Faced with letting him shoot me or them shoot me, I'd take my chances with the Meth Head and disarm and prone myself as quickly as I could.

OK. Tell me what I'm suggesting that is wrong.

[Excaliber]

Not all officers are well trained, and even the majority that are can have an off day. Just like an officer must prepare for the worst case scenario when dealing with the public, the public must also prepare for the worst case scenario when dealing with police. There have been well publicized reports of police officials saying their officers would shoot anyone with a gun that was not an officer, the most recent instances of these statements have been in regards to Campus Carry. And then you have the "Bad" officers like the one in California who posted on facebook that he would prone anyone open carrying out and if they moved then it was two weeks off. So when you are in a high stress situation with a firearm and law enforcement is involved the best possible outcome almost always involves the officers not seeing a weapon in your hand. Another thing to consider is when you have multiple officers giving conflicting orders, who do you obey to avoid getting shot? Good training after your CHL class will help you learn and avoid these issues.

This shouldn't happen, but it does.

My personal tactic would be to remain stock still with hands in view and let them work out who's giving the commands. People generally don't get shot for standing still.

[randomoutburst]

I know that the LEOs are going to be accurate.

I disagree. I know a peace officer who doesn't fire his weapon except at qualification. I wouldn't expect him to do better than a typical CHL holder. I saw the others' groupings on those targets during our shooting qualification; everyone was all over the place! And these people claimed to shoot regularly...how well do you think someone shooting once a year will fare, aim-wise?

My CHL instructor was a peace officer in my city of residence for 28 years and made it very clear that we should NOT depend on officers to be accurate. In fact, he stressed that we cannot expect them to even fire in the first place! He told stories of officers who were on the job 18 years and, when confronted with a violent person threatening them imminent harm, couldn't even pull the trigger to save themselves. He told us a half dozen stories like this; in many of the stories, a peace officer comes upon a violent scene and, despite innocent people being at risk (or in some cases, actually being fired upon - and hit!), the officer wouldn't pull the trigger.

I'm not saying they'll miss if they shoot at you; I'm saying I wouldn't depend on the LEOs. That's why I got a CHL - to defend myself. It's not in a police officer's job description to protect you. They are there to uphold the law. Nothing more.

So, I believe that it is ALWAYS in your best interest to reholster after a shooting in order to avoid the police targeting YOU. The only time I would keep my gun accessible is if I was forced to use the gun in my own home. But again, I wouldn't have it in my hand...it's just not smart to have a weapon in hand when police are on the scene.

[baldeagle]

How do the uniformed officers differentiate between the bad guys and any plainclothes and/ or off-duty cops that may be responding to the same incident? Or do the uniformed guys just shoot them, too?

Surely, there has to be a way.

That's easy. If you're holding a gun you are a threat. If you move your gun hand in their direction, you're shot. If you drop your weapon and put your hands up, they cuff you. One or more officers remains near you to keep you in custody, and the rest move through the store looking for more shooters. Once the scene is secure, they question you, discover you're a GG and release you.

Cops don't have ESP any more than we do. They're just people. They're tasked with an awesome responsibility, so we pray that they are good people (and the vast majority are), but they're prone to the same emotions and fears that we are.

[Bird of Prey]

If you don't have a viable target in sight and ready to be shot your weapon should not be drawn to avoid placing yourself in the above described scenario. If you have to use your weapon immediately reholster and reconceal when your finished. You want to do this so that the LEOs who respond to the "man with a gun" call don't show up and potentially shoot the man they see with a gun.

I fail to see the logic in not having your weapon drawn when you don't know where the BG is. I either have to pray I have a qui.ck enough draw if he pops out of nowhere or that the cops are skilled enough to not shoot me before I can follow their instructions to dissarm. I'll take my chances with the LEOs.

Of course, if I hear or see law enforcement has arrived the Glock goes right back on my hip.

[G.A. Heath]

If you don't have a viable target in sight and ready to be shot your weapon should not be drawn to avoid placing yourself in the above described scenario. If you have to use your weapon immediately reholster and reconceal when your finished. You want to do this so that the LEOs who respond to the "man with a gun" call don't show up and potentially shoot the man they see with a gun.

I fail to see the logic in not having your weapon drawn when you don't know where the BG is. I either have to pray I have a qui.ck enough draw if he pops out of nowhere or that the cops are skilled enough to not shoot me before I can follow their instructions to dissarm. I'll take my chances with the LEOs.

Of course, if I hear or see law enforcement has arrived the Glock goes right back on my hip.

What happens if your not the only CHL on the scene, or if there is an off duty or plain clothes peace officer on the scene. Someone is shooting the place up, and suddenly there is someone with a gun drawn sneaking around right there in front of them. They now have confirmed an armed subject in front of them, no badge or uniform to be seen, and they make the logical decision of "Shoot the bad guy", and you get shot based on an assumption. It is foolish to assume you are the only armed individual in a gun fight, the suspect may have backup and/or there may be others carrying legally. All of this and no one may really know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy.

I still say you need more training if you think its a good idea to draw a gun to confront an armed attacker you can not see (and may never see) in an active shooter situation.

[chasfm11]

I know that the LEOs are going to be accurate.

I disagree. I know a peace officer who doesn't fire his weapon except at qualification. I wouldn't expect him to do better than a typical CHL holder. I saw the others' groupings on those targets during our shooting qualification; everyone was all over the place! And these people claimed to shoot regularly...how well do you think someone shooting once a year will fare, aim-wise?

My CHL instructor was a peace officer in my city of residence for 28 years and made it very clear that we should NOT depend on officers to be accurate. In fact, he stressed that we cannot expect them to even fire in the first place! He told stories of officers who were on the job 18 years and, when confronted with a violent person threatening them imminent harm, couldn't even pull the trigger to save themselves. He told us a half dozen stories like this; in many of the stories, a peace officer comes upon a violent scene and, despite innocent people being at risk (or in some cases, actually being fired upon - and hit!), the officer wouldn't pull the trigger.

I'm not saying they'll miss if they shoot at you; I'm saying I wouldn't depend on the LEOs. That's why I got a CHL - to defend myself. It's not in a police officer's job description to protect you. They are there to uphold the law. Nothing more.

So, I believe that it is ALWAYS in your best interest to reholster after a shooting in order to avoid the police targeting YOU. The only time I would keep my gun accessible is if I was forced to use the gun in my own home. But again, I wouldn't have it in my hand...it's just not smart to have a weapon in hand when police are on the scene.

I guess that I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle and maybe it shows my bias towards what I know versus what I don't know. Our daughter is a police dispatcher in one of the local towns so I do have a bit of 2nd hand information that I'm bringing to the discussion.

1. When the LEOs arrive, I'm no longer in control of the situation. It isn't me against a BG (maybe a couple of them) it is potentially me against the BG AND the LEOs. Tactically, I don't like that prospect at all. Prior to the LEO arrival, I'm going to do whatever is necessary/whatever I can to protect myself.
2. I agree that individual LEOs may not be the finest shots. I'm no crack marksman myself. What I do believe is that, on average, they are going to shoot more accurately than the average BG, especially at something longer than 10 feet.

Maybe this is a difference of what the exact scene that we were dealing with. I was going off of Hoi's scenario that this was a Meth Head in a public place. My reaction/response in other conditions will be different.

[Excaliber]

If you don't have a viable target in sight and ready to be shot your weapon should not be drawn to avoid placing yourself in the above described scenario. If you have to use your weapon immediately reholster and reconceal when your finished. You want to do this so that the LEOs who respond to the "man with a gun" call don't show up and potentially shoot the man they see with a gun.

I fail to see the logic in not having your weapon drawn when you don't know where the BG is. I either have to pray I have a qui.ck enough draw if he pops out of nowhere or that the cops are skilled enough to not shoot me before I can follow their instructions to dissarm. I'll take my chances with the LEOs.

Of course, if I hear or see law enforcement has arrived the Glock goes right back on my hip.

What happens if your not the only CHL on the scene, or if there is an off duty or plain clothes peace officer on the scene. Someone is shooting the place up, and suddenly there is someone with a gun drawn sneaking around right there in front of them. They now have confirmed an armed subject in front of them, no badge or uniform to be seen, and they make the logical decision of "Shoot the bad guy", and you get shot based on an assumption. It is foolish to assume you are the only armed individual in a gun fight, the suspect may have backup and/or there may be others carrying legally. All of this and no one may really know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy.

I still say you need more training if you think its a good idea to draw a gun to confront an armed attacker you can not see (and may never see) in an active shooter situation.

If you're caught in the open with shots being fired nearby, I figure it's not unreasonable to draw a weapon and keep it ready as you move to the nearest cover or exit. When you reach cover, there's no need to keep the gun visible unless you're approached by an assailant. If you reach an exit, there's no need to keep it out at all.

Multiple good guys and at least one bad guy moving around with drawn guns is a high pucker factor situation, so whatever you can do to reduce the risks is a good thing. Just keep in mind that all decisions are tradeoffs. If you keep your gun holstered while moving to cover in an active shooter situation and are suddenly confronted by the BG before LEO's arrive, you may become just another victim before you can react.

Life isn't always easy or fair, but it sure is interesting.

[G.A. Heath]

Here's the breakdown: When your in an active shooter situation you it boils down to the primitive instinct of Fight or Flight. Flight is preferable if it can be done safely. Fight opens you up to a whole new arena of risk. If you find yourself fighting you need to find cover (stops bullets and preferable) or concealment (only hides you and is most likely what you will find easily). Statistically you will find concealment is more available than cover. Good concealment can be a viable alternative to cover depending on the location and likely hood of being caught in someones crossfire. I will fully acknowledge that humans make great ambush predators and hiding where you can take out the hostile is a good idea, but doing so with a drawn weapon can result in elevated risks and even death. Some situations may call for moving between cover/concealment with a drawn gun, but you really need to be trained by something more than your TV or movie collection before considering this. I will strongly advocate that anyone carrying a handgun get training beyond the basic CHL class as you can learn to read factors that can indicate (not identify) if someone else with a weapon is a friendly, you can also learn how to best use cover and/or concealment, and most importantly you can also learn how to avoid being shot by LEOs responding to the situation. You can also learn what may or may not be concealment or cover.

[baldeagle]

If you don't have a viable target in sight and ready to be shot your weapon should not be drawn to avoid placing yourself in the above described scenario. If you have to use your weapon immediately reholster and reconceal when your finished. You want to do this so that the LEOs who respond to the "man with a gun" call don't show up and potentially shoot the man they see with a gun.

I fail to see the logic in not having your weapon drawn when you don't know where the BG is. I either have to pray I have a qui.ck enough draw if he pops out of nowhere or that the cops are skilled enough to not shoot me before I can follow their instructions to dissarm. I'll take my chances with the LEOs.

Of course, if I hear or see law enforcement has arrived the Glock goes right back on my hip.

Here's the problem with your game plan. It assumes one BG shooting up the place and no off-duty LEOs or other CHL holders present in the store. Assume for a moment that you are there and I am there as well. If I see you with a gun, how do I know you are a GG? You look no different than anyone else with a gun. Now I get to decide, do I shoot first to negate your threat? Or do I try to talk to you, only to discover that you are the BG and now I'm dead? If you as much as move your gun in my direction, I have no choice. I have to shoot you to negate the threat. Or let you shoot me first.

Nobody wants to be put in that predicament - not even the police. And they are required to go after the BG. You are not.

It would make much more sense to do something like this:

• 1) Try to determine the location of the BG
  • a) If he's close, find cover where he can't ambush you from behind and have your weapon at the ready (in your hand but by your side, finger off the trigger)
    b) If he's on the other side of the store, stay low, locate the nearest exit and take as many people with you as you can
    c) If you can't tell if he's near or far, find cover until you can
  2) Assume that anyone in the store with a gun is a BG (LEO will - their lives depend on it)
  • a) Failure to do so can cost your life
    b) Shooting a GG can cost you your freedom
    c) IOW, in this scenario, there are very few good outcomes and many, many bad ones

Still feel like drawing your gun?

Or would it make more sense to get the heck out of Dodge and let LEO sort it out?

In this scenario, the BG is in control. He holds all the cards. Your options are limited. Get out of Dodge or put you and your loved ones in harms way. By all means, if the BG is close and getting closer, find cover, protect your family and don't stop shooting him until he's no longer a threat. Other than that, get out now!