A bar without a 51% sign?

[RottenApple]

TABC has separate licenses based on the business including different licenses for mixed drinks, mixed drinks w/food, late night mixed drinks, late night mixed drinks w/food, beer and wine licenses, mini bar licenses, wine tasting, ect.While I have been involved with some licensing for bars I never dealt with it in a hotel. A hotel that has a bar that can serve the entire hotel (room service) might consider the entire revenue of the hotel ( I don't know for sure) into it's 51% calc. But I can't think of the last hotel I went to in Texas that would serve a open mixed drink in my room. Considering all the factors if it's a sit at the bar and order something deep fried kind of place you would be risking it thinking it was anything but a 51%

You are confusing licensing with ownership. Of course there are different licenses for different things. What matters is not the license itself, but WHO (the business) it is owned by/licensed to.

Three examples:

1) Hotel ABC owns and manages every aspect of their establishment. *IF* they have a bar, that bar is owned, operated, and managed by Hotel ABC. Their liquor license (for whatever type of liquor they server) will be to the hotel itself and not just the bar. They will NOT be a 51% location because the entire revenue of the establishment (again, not just the restaurant/bar area) will be taken into account.

2) Hotel XYZ, on the other hand, subcontracts their bar to Liquors-R-Us. Because Liquors-R-Us is the owner/operator of the bar, the liquor license is to them, NOT Hotel XYZ, and therefore *IS* a 51% location.

3) Hotel LMNOP subcontracts their restaurant & bar area to Food-N-Stuff. Because Food-N-Stuff is the owner/operator of the restaurant & bar, the liquor license is to them, NOT Hotel LMNOP, *BUT*, they do not make 51%+ of their income from alcohol, so their gun sign = blue.

And there are many, many more possible permutations of this. Saying (as you seem to be) "if it's a bar it's probably off limits and you'll get arrested" is incredibly simplified and, TBH, somewhat naive. The only positive way to know (unless you happen to be the owner, heh) is to check the TABC website. As we've seen time and time again on this forum (not to mention other places on the web), you can't even rely on the establishment to post the correct sign. Bookmark the TABC website on your smartphone and, should need ever arise, pull it up and check out the location before you enter.

[E.Marquez]

Who makes what money in what manner really makes no difference in the decision. as pointed out there are all kinds of games played in that realm... The only thing that matters is how the place is signed... In prior planning check the TABC site for what was supposed to be issued for a license. Then upon entering, look at the license, it has to be displayed... a quick glance is all that is needed.

The TABC site is subject to GIGO (garbage in, Garbage out) so good for planning, but what is actually hanging on the wall is what counts.

[RottenApple]

Who makes what money in what manner really makes no difference in the decision. as pointed out there are all kinds of games played in that realm... The only thing that matters is how the place is signed... In prior planning check the TABC site for what was supposed to be issued for a license. Then upon entering, look at the license, it has to be displayed... a quick glance is all that is needed.

The TABC site is subject to GIGO (garbage in, Garbage out) so good for planning, but what is actually hanging on the wall is what counts.

And that's where you're wrong. "Who makes what money in what manner" is EXACTLY what TABC uses to determine whether it's a 51% location or not. I don't give a rat's patootie what sign an establishment has posted. They post wrong signs all the time. And I'm certainly not going to search all over the place to look for the license itself. I'll do the smart thing and check TABC's website before I walk in. Because it's not the sign or the piece of paper stuck on the wall next to the bathrooms (sadly, a common place in many restaurant/bar establishments) that counts. It's what TABC says it's sign SHOULD be.

[E.Marquez]

And that's where you're wrong.

No sir, not wrong, you just missed my point and intent..

All of that other is behind the scenes stuff, it means nothing to the end user (you the guy with the CHL).. The ONLY thing that matters to YOU the end user is what is on the wall.

If TABC got the percentage wrong and issued the company a 51% sign,, you knowing it is wrong does not change your ability to carry.
If the sign is a Blue, less then 51% license, and you carry, it matters not that TABC and the Hotel issued and posted the wrong sign...to you the end user.. the sign and the law says you can carry.

That was my point.

Yes knowing how the system works.. Knowing how TABC comes to the decision is interesting perhaps, and knowledge is good.. but the bottom line is, it has no relevance at all in whether you carry that day in that place.. only what is posted that days makes a difference.
That was what I said above, and what my point is.

If you don't think the liquor license issued stating it's a RED 51% no CHL allowed posted location makes a difference because you used the Web site and found something different makes difference..I would have to disagree with you.
To each his own..

EDIT,, perhaps some confusion I see you mention "signs" that is not what Im referring to,, yes signs are mis posted all the time.. Im talking about the actual license that is ISSUED by TABC.. No way for that to be mis posted, as they only get issued one or the other and MUST post it.

It's a confirmation that what the TABC web site (a non binding deal at best) says SHOULD BE (like you stated) posted.

[bayouhazard]

The TABC site is subject to GIGO (garbage in, Garbage out) so good for planning, but what is actually hanging on the wall is what counts.

If you mean the license on the wall then I agree. A missing sign creates a defense to prosecution but a 51% sign by itself doesn't make it an offense to carry there.

[srothstein]

The TABC site is subject to GIGO (garbage in, Garbage out) so good for planning, but what is actually hanging on the wall is what counts.

Just so you can make an accurate plan, the TABC site has a live query into the actual TABC database. While the 51% decision is based on the GIGO laws, the results of it are what is shown in the database. The database we see when we query is the same database that prints the licenses that are hanging on the wall.

So, what I am saying is that the database we query on the site is a complete and valid listing you can use and not wrry about checking the license on the wall. It will match the TABC database.

And after all of the talk, I am glad to see we all agree that the actual ownership and amount of sales are not the issue. The law says the 51% rule is as determined by TABC, so the license is all that matters. We can discuss how TABC issues licenses all we want, but the license issued is what matters.

[jmorris]

The TABC site is subject to GIGO (garbage in, Garbage out) so good for planning, but what is actually hanging on the wall is what counts.

Just so you can make an accurate plan, the TABC site has a live query into the actual TABC database. While the 51% decision is based on the GIGO laws, the results of it are what is shown in the database. The database we see when we query is the same database that prints the licenses that are hanging on the wall.

So, what I am saying is that the database we query on the site is a complete and valid listing you can use and not wrry about checking the license on the wall. It will match the TABC database.

And after all of the talk, I am glad to see we all agree that the actual ownership and amount of sales are not the issue. The law says the 51% rule is as determined by TABC, so the license is all that matters. We can discuss how TABC issues licenses all we want, but the license issued is what matters.

Hey! Quit making sense, you're taking all the fun out of the argument.

[Jihans]

I want to thank everyone for their spirited discussions. I knew this topic would be interesting. My takeaway from this thread is that there is a website to reference....didn't know that.

[Pecos]

I wouldnt enter a bar of any kind with my gun. Regaurdless of no sign.

[E.Marquez]

I wouldnt enter a bar of any kind with my gun. Regaurdless of no sign.

If I might ask..
Why?
What is different in you, your gun, your personality, your decision making skills that makes a room or building that sells alcohol as part of it's reason for being vs a room or building that sells used cars, Tacos or gas?

This is not intended to be derogatory or even look down on your personal decision, as it is just that yours and personal..
I am trying to understand the thought process that coincides with some that think a location changes the gun owner in some way.

Thanks

Erik

[Pecos]

I agree. Im the same person & shouldnt mater. Hey I live outside of San Antonio. The Bars there search you & if you dont have a gun they will give you one!!!
Anyway it's just personal with me. I feel a confrontation is easer to happen in a bar. If I had to use deadly force against some one because he was being dumb, The courts would wonder whay I was in a bar with a gun -even if no sign. Mainly because my instructor said stay out of bars with a gun.
This is just what work for me.

[Jaguar]

My wife asked me to stop at Chili’s the other day and pick up some food to go. I sat down at the bar, ordered a beer, ordered some food, watched the game on the television, they brought my food, I gave them my money, finished my beer and drove home. All this while armed. The world didn’t end.

Just for the record, Chili’s = Blue Sign

[Pecos]

I will carry at Chili's too. Personally I would concider them a resturant. Plus they serve pizza now!!!!